French Age 60 Rule
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Age 60 Rule!
First of all I would like to applaud the French for keeping the 60 rule. Too bad that this does not apply throughout the rest of Europe.
If I ever have to fly through French airspace or divert to a French airport with a captain over 60 I will jump on the radio and report to ATC. This to protect my license and myself. I hope each and every one of you keeps this in mind so that you will not end up in trouble.
Why do pilots continue to fly beyond 60? Well most arguments for this seem to be the financial situation. Looking back just a few years this was not an option. So for that reason I don't quite understand how this has become such a surprise to so many.
If you had been employed by a hamburger-chain, yes then I understand your financial reasons. But we are talking about pilots here right?
Many companies have a retirement plan to retire at 60. If pilots continue to struggle for a continuation beyond 60 they will also put the possibility to retire at 60 in jeopardy for everybody else.
Why don't people respect life and take time to do something meaningful like spending time with grandchildren, travel, go fishing or whatever you enjoy on your time off. Bottom line: Don't we all work for our spare time? What I am trying to say is that we are all given a very short time on this planet, and we should all try to get the most out of it if we are lucky enough to maintain a good health.
Many pilots also say that as long as you are medically fit you should be able to continue. Why do we not include mental fitness in this? Some maintain a great mental fitness for a much longer time than 60, but in general I think it's fair to say that mental fitness decreases with age.
There is a large group of young pilots out there with huge bankloans on education, house, car and families to provide for. Each time a pilot decides to continue beyond 60, each time a younger pilot gets robbed on his pension, better salary, captain upgrade and an unemployed has to stand aside. That's two pilots affected by one pilots egoistic behaviour.
Another aspect I don't understand is how you can continue working when you know that your younger colleagues want nothing else than for you to quit!
Respect your profession and respect your colleagues!
If I ever have to fly through French airspace or divert to a French airport with a captain over 60 I will jump on the radio and report to ATC. This to protect my license and myself. I hope each and every one of you keeps this in mind so that you will not end up in trouble.
Why do pilots continue to fly beyond 60? Well most arguments for this seem to be the financial situation. Looking back just a few years this was not an option. So for that reason I don't quite understand how this has become such a surprise to so many.
If you had been employed by a hamburger-chain, yes then I understand your financial reasons. But we are talking about pilots here right?
Many companies have a retirement plan to retire at 60. If pilots continue to struggle for a continuation beyond 60 they will also put the possibility to retire at 60 in jeopardy for everybody else.
Why don't people respect life and take time to do something meaningful like spending time with grandchildren, travel, go fishing or whatever you enjoy on your time off. Bottom line: Don't we all work for our spare time? What I am trying to say is that we are all given a very short time on this planet, and we should all try to get the most out of it if we are lucky enough to maintain a good health.
Many pilots also say that as long as you are medically fit you should be able to continue. Why do we not include mental fitness in this? Some maintain a great mental fitness for a much longer time than 60, but in general I think it's fair to say that mental fitness decreases with age.
There is a large group of young pilots out there with huge bankloans on education, house, car and families to provide for. Each time a pilot decides to continue beyond 60, each time a younger pilot gets robbed on his pension, better salary, captain upgrade and an unemployed has to stand aside. That's two pilots affected by one pilots egoistic behaviour.
Another aspect I don't understand is how you can continue working when you know that your younger colleagues want nothing else than for you to quit!
Respect your profession and respect your colleagues!
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AKAD:
From what planet did you just land!!! Must be from somewhere in outer space?
I wonder if your views should also be applied to doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. I know some young layers and doctors whom are also paying student loans, I suppose they should start to lobby and have their older ‘colleagues’ banned from exercising their professions?
From what planet did you just land!!! Must be from somewhere in outer space?
I wonder if your views should also be applied to doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. I know some young layers and doctors whom are also paying student loans, I suppose they should start to lobby and have their older ‘colleagues’ banned from exercising their professions?
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First the French flyers are not getting any advantage by retiring at 60.
Secondly, the pensions of the french system are quite correct in regard of most of the other european ones; thanks to the Unions who have established this system just after second world war II.
Third, plenty of things to do for an old flyer grounded -for professional activities-, such as teaching the young generation, or do the things we have not gotten the time to do before.
Fourthly, solidarity between generation, it is an opening for the young pilots and the unemployed flyers, a lot of them with wife and from time to time kids, and waiting for a job with financial difficulties. Do you remember that it was not so easy when you were young? Do you remember that in those old times the general situation was better than now? have you notice the more difficult environment for a young guy than on your time?
Definitively, I am a strong supporter of the french system which authorises the oldests to benefit of free time at the autumn of their life and helps the young generation by flying sooner.
Secondly, the pensions of the french system are quite correct in regard of most of the other european ones; thanks to the Unions who have established this system just after second world war II.
Third, plenty of things to do for an old flyer grounded -for professional activities-, such as teaching the young generation, or do the things we have not gotten the time to do before.
Fourthly, solidarity between generation, it is an opening for the young pilots and the unemployed flyers, a lot of them with wife and from time to time kids, and waiting for a job with financial difficulties. Do you remember that it was not so easy when you were young? Do you remember that in those old times the general situation was better than now? have you notice the more difficult environment for a young guy than on your time?
Definitively, I am a strong supporter of the french system which authorises the oldests to benefit of free time at the autumn of their life and helps the young generation by flying sooner.
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akada & malaysian eaglet
Two quite young gentlemen who have yet to discover most of what life is really all about.
Both of you talk as though entry into a 'system' or pension scheme or a national airline is the norm. Far from it. The majority of pilots don't progress via that system, you are the chosen few and you shouldn't forget it. The more general route through an aviation career can involve redundancy, cut backs and employment with several companies, going to the bottom of seniority systems from a previously held high position more than once, long periods unemployed and burning up what pension scheme and savings you may have been lucky enough to salvage from the liquidator, when was the last time either of you had to leave a job and join the dole queue?
And what makes you think that you are now getting it harder than we older pilots were at your age? Again, way off, after World War 2 their was an abundance of young pilots who, on reaching 55/60, wanted to carry on flying and did so, to the detriment of their younger colleagues at the time.
I am sure many of us would have loved to chuck it all in and go fishing, sailing, baby sitting or whatever, the sad facts were that we couldn't as there was not enough money in the pot.
Akada, just what are you talking about? "just a short time back flying beyond sixty was not an option", total nonsense. When I first got my ATPL the retirement age was SIXTY FIVE, that was the norm and that is what we are trying to regain, the NORM.
Oh yes, and we have all had a wife and kids to support and on a lot less money than either of you two get paid today and with no job security and little or no pension scheme.
You guys should really do your homework before you post on these forums which are for all professional pilots and not the minority such as yourselves.
Both of you talk as though entry into a 'system' or pension scheme or a national airline is the norm. Far from it. The majority of pilots don't progress via that system, you are the chosen few and you shouldn't forget it. The more general route through an aviation career can involve redundancy, cut backs and employment with several companies, going to the bottom of seniority systems from a previously held high position more than once, long periods unemployed and burning up what pension scheme and savings you may have been lucky enough to salvage from the liquidator, when was the last time either of you had to leave a job and join the dole queue?
And what makes you think that you are now getting it harder than we older pilots were at your age? Again, way off, after World War 2 their was an abundance of young pilots who, on reaching 55/60, wanted to carry on flying and did so, to the detriment of their younger colleagues at the time.
I am sure many of us would have loved to chuck it all in and go fishing, sailing, baby sitting or whatever, the sad facts were that we couldn't as there was not enough money in the pot.
Akada, just what are you talking about? "just a short time back flying beyond sixty was not an option", total nonsense. When I first got my ATPL the retirement age was SIXTY FIVE, that was the norm and that is what we are trying to regain, the NORM.
Oh yes, and we have all had a wife and kids to support and on a lot less money than either of you two get paid today and with no job security and little or no pension scheme.
You guys should really do your homework before you post on these forums which are for all professional pilots and not the minority such as yourselves.
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Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My eyes are full of tears for all you guys approaching 60 or beyond. It's so sad to hear that your financial situation is, and has been so bad throughout your whole career.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU'RE FOOLING??????????????????
The whole financial thing is just a sad excuse for you being afraid of getting old and loosing respect together with your four stripes.
If you want to continue flying, do so at the flying clubs and share your experience with becoming pilots instead.
Malaysian says that unions have established this system and he is correct. This system which you guys have fought so hard to develop. Should we just throw that out the window because of your egoism? Do you realise you are destroying all this for a lot of younger pilots? Perhaps you do, but you sure as h*** don't seem to bother about it when you elbow yourselves through the crowd.
It's about time that the rest of us who agree with the age 60-rule come forward and express ourselves. Until now we have just sat quiet, hearing your (excuse the expression) piss-poor excuses. I urge more people in favour of the age 60 rule to come forward and not let these whining men hang on to the rudder.
If you have no life outside Aviation and feel you must continue flying. At least show some dignity and request to downgrade yourselves into the right seat.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU'RE FOOLING??????????????????
The whole financial thing is just a sad excuse for you being afraid of getting old and loosing respect together with your four stripes.
If you want to continue flying, do so at the flying clubs and share your experience with becoming pilots instead.
Malaysian says that unions have established this system and he is correct. This system which you guys have fought so hard to develop. Should we just throw that out the window because of your egoism? Do you realise you are destroying all this for a lot of younger pilots? Perhaps you do, but you sure as h*** don't seem to bother about it when you elbow yourselves through the crowd.
It's about time that the rest of us who agree with the age 60-rule come forward and express ourselves. Until now we have just sat quiet, hearing your (excuse the expression) piss-poor excuses. I urge more people in favour of the age 60 rule to come forward and not let these whining men hang on to the rudder.
If you have no life outside Aviation and feel you must continue flying. At least show some dignity and request to downgrade yourselves into the right seat.
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Gentlemen
Below is a link to a very good article on Internet "Trolls". Who they are, how they work and how to deal with them.
I recommend all regular users of these Forums read this... from time to time forums get infected with a "TROLL" as this thread apparently has.
Please visit: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
Cheers
Below is a link to a very good article on Internet "Trolls". Who they are, how they work and how to deal with them.
I recommend all regular users of these Forums read this... from time to time forums get infected with a "TROLL" as this thread apparently has.
Please visit: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
Cheers
The Reverend
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Let's revise your opinion on this when you are approaching 60 akada. I have heard your song so many times before and oh, how it changed when the singer saw his retirement looming!
Aviator Extraordinaire
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Pigboat is 100% correct. The age 60 rule was an all American invention.
The reasons that all airlines (well nearly all airlines) support the age 60 rule IS TO SAVE MONEY, bottom line!
And with nationally supported airlines it becomes a matter of politics (and economics).
To the young pilots on this thread crying about some poor old (?) captain staying past the age of 60 is going to keep you from advancing; wait until you get in the late 50 and see no reason to retire, except it will be forced on you for economical and political reasons.
Just wait!
(I really agreed with your point of view until I hit 50! Guess what THINGS CHANGE!)
(and to the person that said they would report any pilot over the age of 60 flying in French airspace to cover their ass
and the horse you rode in on
Sorry little boy!
The reasons that all airlines (well nearly all airlines) support the age 60 rule IS TO SAVE MONEY, bottom line!
And with nationally supported airlines it becomes a matter of politics (and economics).
To the young pilots on this thread crying about some poor old (?) captain staying past the age of 60 is going to keep you from advancing; wait until you get in the late 50 and see no reason to retire, except it will be forced on you for economical and political reasons.
Just wait!
(I really agreed with your point of view until I hit 50! Guess what THINGS CHANGE!)
(and to the person that said they would report any pilot over the age of 60 flying in French airspace to cover their ass
and the horse you rode in onSorry little boy!
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Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago,german national on monthly medicals,operating within the federal border.At the time they were not JAA compliant don`t know situation now.
Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago affectionately known as "grandad". German national on monthly medicals operating within federal borders.At the time Germany was not JAA compliant don`t know present situation (believe under jaa sum of years of 2 pilot crew not to exceed 120) quick rant here afraid . . . if eu states can look after and protect their own crews at the expense of other eu states why the **** can`t the UK? ! !
Ooops well i`ve not been well
Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago affectionately known as "grandad". German national on monthly medicals operating within federal borders.At the time Germany was not JAA compliant don`t know present situation (believe under jaa sum of years of 2 pilot crew not to exceed 120) quick rant here afraid . . . if eu states can look after and protect their own crews at the expense of other eu states why the **** can`t the UK? ! !
Ooops well i`ve not been well
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Well akada you are either a wind-up merchant or a pathetic little person who really doesn't understand what life may hold for you and you would appear to have serious misconceptions about your own fallibility too.
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Very strong reactions from everybody! I think your frustrated answers again demonstrate your egoistic behaviour.
Pilots over 60 do not contribute to airsafety. CRM is automatically thrown out the window when your younger colleagues feel bad about your presence. Airlines are not an institution for your wellbeing. You people from the 40's have had it all served on silver trays. You grew up in the happy 50's and have seen the best of Aviation. Today we have layoffs all over the world thanks to terrorism and not to forget all the low fare airlines. You have seen the sweet days. It's time to let the younger generation continue before you destroy it all and force everyone to continue to 65.
I've been called a wind up artist and more by you people in this forum. All I'm trying to do is to knock some sense into your thick skulls. You are behaving like vultures.
No matter how much you scream, the only ones you're convincing you can't afford to retire are yourselves.
Pilots over 60 do not contribute to airsafety. CRM is automatically thrown out the window when your younger colleagues feel bad about your presence. Airlines are not an institution for your wellbeing. You people from the 40's have had it all served on silver trays. You grew up in the happy 50's and have seen the best of Aviation. Today we have layoffs all over the world thanks to terrorism and not to forget all the low fare airlines. You have seen the sweet days. It's time to let the younger generation continue before you destroy it all and force everyone to continue to 65.
I've been called a wind up artist and more by you people in this forum. All I'm trying to do is to knock some sense into your thick skulls. You are behaving like vultures.
No matter how much you scream, the only ones you're convincing you can't afford to retire are yourselves.
Wow! Pilots over 60 do not contribute to air safety. Such insight.
At what point approaching 60 does the contribution to air safety go out the window? Is it 23:55 on the eve of the 60th birthday? 23:59? Or is the slide into incompetence more prolonged?
Check out the following two links
http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua811.shtml
http://www.corazon.com/811ori.pdf
The Captain on that flight was 59 and change - it was his second to last flight. He landed a grossly overwight 747, at night - that had sustained structural damage and had two engines out on the same side - off an overwater black hole approach.
At what point approaching 60 does the contribution to air safety go out the window? Is it 23:55 on the eve of the 60th birthday? 23:59? Or is the slide into incompetence more prolonged?
Check out the following two links
http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua811.shtml
http://www.corazon.com/811ori.pdf
The Captain on that flight was 59 and change - it was his second to last flight. He landed a grossly overwight 747, at night - that had sustained structural damage and had two engines out on the same side - off an overwater black hole approach.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
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I was renewing my Class 1 this week (age 54) and discussing the age 60 limit with the doctor. His position is the likelihood of particularly heart attack/stroke rises steeply after age 60. So there is a reason for this rule although whether it is justifiable is another question.
Curiously I was reading 137 which is which is nowadays classed as 'prehypertensive' but he made no comment.
Curiously I was reading 137 which is which is nowadays classed as 'prehypertensive' but he made no comment.