French Age 60 Rule
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Grandpa
If you follow the thread back you will see that I was merely commenting on a rather rash assertion that 60+ pilots shouldn't fly because of an increased risk of heart attack. It isn't so - coronary conditions are no respecters of birthdays.
If you follow the thread back you will see that I was merely commenting on a rather rash assertion that 60+ pilots shouldn't fly because of an increased risk of heart attack. It isn't so - coronary conditions are no respecters of birthdays.
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...Well!...I gotta tell you,
...I agree with these young turks that going beyond 60 just ain't on!
I tossed it in at 59, after 40 yrs in the trade, then moved on to a bit of sim work for the next 4 yrs, made more money per annum than I could have in the LHS, and then called it a day.
Now I spend my time on my private jetty watching the contrails overhead (I wonder if the young turks know what a contrail is?) and think about the great time I had.
And you know why I tossed it in?...
because I couldn't put up with all the young Sh#ts that occupy the RHS these days who believe they have a right to a command position without earning it!
They sicken me! Most of them are incompetent and they all have an attitude problem!
By the way...I drive these days!!
...I agree with these young turks that going beyond 60 just ain't on!
I tossed it in at 59, after 40 yrs in the trade, then moved on to a bit of sim work for the next 4 yrs, made more money per annum than I could have in the LHS, and then called it a day.
Now I spend my time on my private jetty watching the contrails overhead (I wonder if the young turks know what a contrail is?) and think about the great time I had.
And you know why I tossed it in?...
because I couldn't put up with all the young Sh#ts that occupy the RHS these days who believe they have a right to a command position without earning it!
They sicken me! Most of them are incompetent and they all have an attitude problem!
By the way...I drive these days!!
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Does anyone have any uptodate info regarding the US age 60 rule. I know that there was some proposal to move it up to 63, but it seems to have go very quiet as late.
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Is France the country where the pilots are still fighting to retain their glass of wine with their inflight meal? Surely not. Just a malicious rumour I am sure.
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This discussion was helpful and civilised until AKADA started his extreme and silly comments. As he has such difficulty with rational thought it would probably be best to ignore him (or her?). However there may be more rational people who share his view that pilots should clear off from the work place when they reach 60, so that others can take their places. My response to this would be "But, why?" We don’t treat anybody else in this way. We don’t say to successful barristers, "You make lots of money so you should be pretty well-off by the time you are 55, so you can retire at that age and let someone else take your place". We don’t say to managing directors, "You can make heaps of money what with your bonuses and special deals and share options, so you can retire at 50, because lots of other people would like to have a go at being MD". Obviously not, and it is just as foolish to use such logic with pilots.
AKADA produced a link to an American site that supported the 60 limit. Following the link I could find no logical arguments, just statements and rhetoric.
If I had, say, a pension available on retirement equal to two thirds of my income then I would be happy to retire, but I don't. I see no obligation to explain my lack of wealth, but it is a fact, and I have a number of family dependent on my income. Another 5 years of working income would be enormously helpful to my family, to me and in a small way to my country. (As a worker paying taxes and spending money I am an asset to my country.)
As there are important safety considerations it seems to me that pilots retirement age should be determined by medical experts and by considerations of competency. Well, it has been. And the decision is 65.
May I invite Americans to try to justify the FAA position? Aren't you supposed to champion people's rights? What about my right to work when I am 60? Expert aviation doctors say I am safe to fly a plane. What right do your officials have to say that I can't?
As for France, someone recently told me that they thought that France classifies pilots similarly to artists, and they get some sort of favourable tax treatment. My informant thought that if they wanted to work until 65 they would lose this advantage. French pilots, could you let us know if this is true? As a founder member of the EU, does France not have a moral duty to comply with a reasonable EU regulation rather than put first the preferences of a particularly well-off group of French workers, or should I say non-workers?
I personally believe the arguments for 65 are clear. However officialdom in France and certain other countries have legislated otherwise. But do we know who made these decisions? If this is democracy shouldn’t it be rather more open?
AKADA produced a link to an American site that supported the 60 limit. Following the link I could find no logical arguments, just statements and rhetoric.
If I had, say, a pension available on retirement equal to two thirds of my income then I would be happy to retire, but I don't. I see no obligation to explain my lack of wealth, but it is a fact, and I have a number of family dependent on my income. Another 5 years of working income would be enormously helpful to my family, to me and in a small way to my country. (As a worker paying taxes and spending money I am an asset to my country.)
As there are important safety considerations it seems to me that pilots retirement age should be determined by medical experts and by considerations of competency. Well, it has been. And the decision is 65.
May I invite Americans to try to justify the FAA position? Aren't you supposed to champion people's rights? What about my right to work when I am 60? Expert aviation doctors say I am safe to fly a plane. What right do your officials have to say that I can't?
As for France, someone recently told me that they thought that France classifies pilots similarly to artists, and they get some sort of favourable tax treatment. My informant thought that if they wanted to work until 65 they would lose this advantage. French pilots, could you let us know if this is true? As a founder member of the EU, does France not have a moral duty to comply with a reasonable EU regulation rather than put first the preferences of a particularly well-off group of French workers, or should I say non-workers?
I personally believe the arguments for 65 are clear. However officialdom in France and certain other countries have legislated otherwise. But do we know who made these decisions? If this is democracy shouldn’t it be rather more open?
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Reason about 60 years limit in France...
Only one: lack of work for pilots, wich led pilots union to think it was better to give an opportunity for flying to people with a great need for money to sustain themselves and family, than to have the eldest continue flying while they could retire on good financial terms. A law was passed in French Parliament without opposition.
About the taxes payed by pilots: their used to be a special advantage (reserved to some categories of tax-payers: all crew members, journalists, artists....) to substract a big part of their declared income, considered "professional depense". This advantage disappeared years ago, but crew members got the possibility to substract the "real" professional spending as can do many independant workers in France .
There is a complicated regulation about it which takes into account the places where they travel, duration of travel, part of PC buying and using, car,...et al.
About the taxes payed by pilots: their used to be a special advantage (reserved to some categories of tax-payers: all crew members, journalists, artists....) to substract a big part of their declared income, considered "professional depense". This advantage disappeared years ago, but crew members got the possibility to substract the "real" professional spending as can do many independant workers in France .
There is a complicated regulation about it which takes into account the places where they travel, duration of travel, part of PC buying and using, car,...et al.
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Thanks for the info, Grandpa. It is always helpful to understand why something has come about, even if you don’t entirely agree with it.
Following your explanation would there be any difficulty in France applying what they have decided is best to pilots under their control (pilots working for a French based company)? and accepting EU agreed policies for everybody else? I am sure that in the “old days” countries respected each other’s regulations. For instance I seem to recall that Air Lanka had an age limit of 62. So an Air Lanka captain could keep going a little longer, and surely fly anywhere Air Lanka chose to send him. I am not sure of my facts here so please correct me if necessary.
Following your explanation would there be any difficulty in France applying what they have decided is best to pilots under their control (pilots working for a French based company)? and accepting EU agreed policies for everybody else? I am sure that in the “old days” countries respected each other’s regulations. For instance I seem to recall that Air Lanka had an age limit of 62. So an Air Lanka captain could keep going a little longer, and surely fly anywhere Air Lanka chose to send him. I am not sure of my facts here so please correct me if necessary.
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2 questions:
126.9 said that this ruling applies to "International" flights. Might it be argued that flights within the EU bewteen Shengen States, where no presentaion of ID is required to cross borders, is not an International flight? I've no idea of the answer, but I wonder if anyone has tested the concept.
About licence signing in Holland. It was said that Dutch licences can only be signed by Dutch TRE's. Does this apply to initial LST's, all LST's, and what about LPC's? I ask because I recently had my Dutch licence annual LPC signed by a non-Dutch JAA TRE. I've heard nothing back from the IUW that this was wrong.
126.9 said that this ruling applies to "International" flights. Might it be argued that flights within the EU bewteen Shengen States, where no presentaion of ID is required to cross borders, is not an International flight? I've no idea of the answer, but I wonder if anyone has tested the concept.
About licence signing in Holland. It was said that Dutch licences can only be signed by Dutch TRE's. Does this apply to initial LST's, all LST's, and what about LPC's? I ask because I recently had my Dutch licence annual LPC signed by a non-Dutch JAA TRE. I've heard nothing back from the IUW that this was wrong.
ex-Tanker
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Licenses
Rat 5, bit off track here but in answer to your question, if the license is a JAR one, then any registered JAR IRE/TRE can sign it. Also, if you are working in any other JAR rules country you can have your license administered there if you wish. FC.
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And to think akada (see previous posts) sees all those approaching or over 60 pilots as being egotistical!!!
There is a saying that he is perhaps not too familiar with (including most of his rantings) and that is "transference" meaning he/she will label a person or group of people having a certain trait or tendency when in reality, that is the very trait he has himself but does not realise it!!
Sounds to me your only interest in getting rid of the older guys is so that YOU can keep flying! Is that not "special interest" and egotistical? Maybe I'm missing something here.
And FYI I'm nowhere near 60 but have plenty of respect for my elder colleagues because I know I will be there someday and the staus quo will not always be in my favor.
Also, I'll tell you this - I would much rather fly with a 60-year old than a young, self-opinionated pip-squeak who thinks the world owes him a living but no one else. What will you sing the first time you get laid off/made redundant, have no pension, cannot pursue your dreams because there is NO opportuinity for you. My God, you should count your blessings if it is really that good for you because you have not lived. What planet do you come from my friend???!!!
There is a saying that he is perhaps not too familiar with (including most of his rantings) and that is "transference" meaning he/she will label a person or group of people having a certain trait or tendency when in reality, that is the very trait he has himself but does not realise it!!
Sounds to me your only interest in getting rid of the older guys is so that YOU can keep flying! Is that not "special interest" and egotistical? Maybe I'm missing something here.
And FYI I'm nowhere near 60 but have plenty of respect for my elder colleagues because I know I will be there someday and the staus quo will not always be in my favor.
Also, I'll tell you this - I would much rather fly with a 60-year old than a young, self-opinionated pip-squeak who thinks the world owes him a living but no one else. What will you sing the first time you get laid off/made redundant, have no pension, cannot pursue your dreams because there is NO opportuinity for you. My God, you should count your blessings if it is really that good for you because you have not lived. What planet do you come from my friend???!!!
