Ek Cargo Fire
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If the crew got it on the ground safely with noone injured.
WELL DONE!
Other factors can be fine tuned next time.
I find slagging crews off when all the facts are not known to be unprofessional.
WELL DONE!
Other factors can be fine tuned next time.
I find slagging crews off when all the facts are not known to be unprofessional.
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I was on that flight 2 days prior.
They had a cargo fire warning, fired the bottle and extinguished it? Then held to speak to ops? Then got another warning and diverted? How long were they in the hold?
I really don't see the problem. As far as they were concerned it was out. So they go once round the hold to see where ops want them to go (bearing in mind the are at FL330 over an airfield.) They get a second warning and divert immediately.
Once the fire is out it's no longer a Mayday yeah? So commercial decisions need to be made, pax handling, facilites etc etc. Ops have a better knowledge of this than us, so why not ask if it doesn't take too long? Then they get a second warning, OK boys now we need to get our butts on the groung ASAP. ****** ops and commercial decisions, get it down. And thats what they did. They explored all avenues trying to think of pax and the airline. Once that was no longer an option they diverted.
How can anyone criticise a fellow crew for getting an aircraft on the ground safely following an inflight fire? No one was hurt, the aircraft was intact, I think they did a great job. As for Emirates being a"third world airline", get a bloody grip!
They had a cargo fire warning, fired the bottle and extinguished it? Then held to speak to ops? Then got another warning and diverted? How long were they in the hold?
I really don't see the problem. As far as they were concerned it was out. So they go once round the hold to see where ops want them to go (bearing in mind the are at FL330 over an airfield.) They get a second warning and divert immediately.
Once the fire is out it's no longer a Mayday yeah? So commercial decisions need to be made, pax handling, facilites etc etc. Ops have a better knowledge of this than us, so why not ask if it doesn't take too long? Then they get a second warning, OK boys now we need to get our butts on the groung ASAP. ****** ops and commercial decisions, get it down. And thats what they did. They explored all avenues trying to think of pax and the airline. Once that was no longer an option they diverted.
How can anyone criticise a fellow crew for getting an aircraft on the ground safely following an inflight fire? No one was hurt, the aircraft was intact, I think they did a great job. As for Emirates being a"third world airline", get a bloody grip!
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air bubba,
EK does have a preferential bidding system, guaranteed days off,
plus many other benefits that you may not be aware of.
yes, the salary may seems low but, the entire salary is completely tax free plus company provided accomdation anything from a 3 bedroom apartment to a 3 or 4 bedroom villa with electricity and water paid for.
777 has 5 cargo fire extinguishing system. The first 2 are rapid dump system while other 3 dumps at a reduced rates. If the fire was out, i think there should be enough time to have a chat with ops so that a better outcome can be achieved.
just my .02 cent
EK does have a preferential bidding system, guaranteed days off,
plus many other benefits that you may not be aware of.
yes, the salary may seems low but, the entire salary is completely tax free plus company provided accomdation anything from a 3 bedroom apartment to a 3 or 4 bedroom villa with electricity and water paid for.
777 has 5 cargo fire extinguishing system. The first 2 are rapid dump system while other 3 dumps at a reduced rates. If the fire was out, i think there should be enough time to have a chat with ops so that a better outcome can be achieved.
just my .02 cent
Trash du Blanc
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Back in my younger days, a fellow EMB-120 crew had a oil low pressure indication on the left engine. Instead of following the memory items (which would have called for engine shutdown) they called up maintenance control (they were on approach to ATL) and described the problem. Maintenance said, "I'd advise you to follow your checklist!" About that time the engine seized.
Dispatchers/mechanics/management pilots aren't any better at thinking on the fly than flight crews. Follow the checklists immediately - most certainly this one in Chennai started with text about nearest airport, landing is first priority, etc.... Cool heads spend months writing checklists - deviate and you become a test pilot.
411A for once I agree with you - you DID take your pills today, didn't you?
Dispatchers/mechanics/management pilots aren't any better at thinking on the fly than flight crews. Follow the checklists immediately - most certainly this one in Chennai started with text about nearest airport, landing is first priority, etc.... Cool heads spend months writing checklists - deviate and you become a test pilot.
411A for once I agree with you - you DID take your pills today, didn't you?
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>>They had a cargo fire warning, fired the bottle and extinguished it? Then held to speak to ops? Then got another warning and diverted? How long were they in the hold?
I really don't see the problem. As far as they were concerned it was out.<<
Well, I guess AC thought their DC-9 lav fire was out, with fatal results.
See: http://aviation-safety.net/database/1983/830602-1.htm
And perhaps going into holding with a cargo fire warning is still normal procedure with some carriers.
In the U.S. we would go into holding to complete lengthy electrical fire checklists in the sim years ago. Part of this was artificial to get the FE training done before the landings. Even in modern aircraft, some of these legacy checklists continue e.g. the SR111 MD-11 captain wanted to press on with a long electrical checklist while the FO wanted to get the plane on the ground. Sadly, they were overtaken by events.
After some of the accidents mentioned above, recent emphasis in "North" American training has been to land ASAP. You can see from the comments above, attitudes toward the holding request tend to be more skeptical on this side of the pond.
Like everyone else, I am thrilled that the outcome was good.
Dubai is a garden spot, just keep me out of the Cyclone next time it is raided <g>.
I really don't see the problem. As far as they were concerned it was out.<<
Well, I guess AC thought their DC-9 lav fire was out, with fatal results.
See: http://aviation-safety.net/database/1983/830602-1.htm
And perhaps going into holding with a cargo fire warning is still normal procedure with some carriers.
In the U.S. we would go into holding to complete lengthy electrical fire checklists in the sim years ago. Part of this was artificial to get the FE training done before the landings. Even in modern aircraft, some of these legacy checklists continue e.g. the SR111 MD-11 captain wanted to press on with a long electrical checklist while the FO wanted to get the plane on the ground. Sadly, they were overtaken by events.
After some of the accidents mentioned above, recent emphasis in "North" American training has been to land ASAP. You can see from the comments above, attitudes toward the holding request tend to be more skeptical on this side of the pond.
Like everyone else, I am thrilled that the outcome was good.
Dubai is a garden spot, just keep me out of the Cyclone next time it is raided <g>.
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Out of interest, has anyone ever lost an aircraft by rushing into a decision with their head up their a**e?
I hear Boeing are changing the software to remove the need for pilot judgement. If any red caution appears the aircraft immediately diverts to the nearest airfield, lands, pops the slides and then dumps the pax on the tarmac before self destructing.
Air Bubba, its called irony, you may not be familiar with it down at the scissor sharpening meetings!
Unless you know the facts its a brave call to slag a pilot off for handling a nasty situation and getting the aircraft on the ground safely.
Yep good old US of A, 'invented' some interesting A300 unusual attitude recovery techniques too.
Its amazingly easy to slag people off, don't you think!!
Ghost
I hear Boeing are changing the software to remove the need for pilot judgement. If any red caution appears the aircraft immediately diverts to the nearest airfield, lands, pops the slides and then dumps the pax on the tarmac before self destructing.
Air Bubba, its called irony, you may not be familiar with it down at the scissor sharpening meetings!
Unless you know the facts its a brave call to slag a pilot off for handling a nasty situation and getting the aircraft on the ground safely.
After some of the accidents mentioned above, recent emphasis in "North" American training has been to land ASAP. You can see from the comments above, attitudes toward the holding request tend to be more skeptical on this side of the pond.
Its amazingly easy to slag people off, don't you think!!
Ghost
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>>Air Bubba, its called irony, you may not be familiar with it down at the scissor sharpening meetings!<<
>>Its amazingly easy to slag people off, don't you think!!<<
You seem to be demonstrating that point with your post...
No need for an inferiority complex just because some of us are Americans.
Many of the worldwide trends in procedures, training and operations, good and bad, do come from the U.S. as you point out. In recent years we've seen such originally American concepts as locked cockpit doors, drug and alcohol testing, no smoking on the aircraft and keeping granny off the jumpseat vigorously debated here on PPRuNe.
The EK crew was likely following company procedure by going into holding, they probably needed approval from ops to divert for a fire warning and agent discharge.
You are certainly right that a rushed decision could have been the wrong one, that is why it is healthy to discuss the issues here. No criticism of the crew is intended by anyone from what I can see.
>>Its amazingly easy to slag people off, don't you think!!<<
You seem to be demonstrating that point with your post...
No need for an inferiority complex just because some of us are Americans.
Many of the worldwide trends in procedures, training and operations, good and bad, do come from the U.S. as you point out. In recent years we've seen such originally American concepts as locked cockpit doors, drug and alcohol testing, no smoking on the aircraft and keeping granny off the jumpseat vigorously debated here on PPRuNe.
The EK crew was likely following company procedure by going into holding, they probably needed approval from ops to divert for a fire warning and agent discharge.
You are certainly right that a rushed decision could have been the wrong one, that is why it is healthy to discuss the issues here. No criticism of the crew is intended by anyone from what I can see.
Pilots' Pal
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I'm afraid the spectre of commercial pressure has raised its head here. I would have thought that an experienced crew would act in the interests of those immediately involved - those in the aircraft. Any commercial consideration is secondary and could be bashed around by the "Monday Morning Quarter-backers".
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Bus 429, 411A, Airbubba et al,
Let me get this right.
You have an engine fire, use the bottle, the light goes out and you do what.........?
By your arguments, stick the nose down and throw it on the nearest piece of tarmac!
I think not.
So if the warning went out in this case, it would appear reasonable for the crew to take a few moments to consider the situation/options. YOU don't know (neither do I) how long they held, IF AT ALL, neither do you have the met, notams etc.
When did you become judge and jury?
Let me get this right.
You have an engine fire, use the bottle, the light goes out and you do what.........?
By your arguments, stick the nose down and throw it on the nearest piece of tarmac!
I think not.
So if the warning went out in this case, it would appear reasonable for the crew to take a few moments to consider the situation/options. YOU don't know (neither do I) how long they held, IF AT ALL, neither do you have the met, notams etc.
When did you become judge and jury?
Boeing 777 QRH states at the third or fourth line of the cargo fire checklist (depending on whether it is a forward or aft cargo fire), and l quote...
Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport
No where doeas it say land ASAP.
Why? I don't know, but l suspect those folk at Boeing have a reason.
EK procedures do not say one way or the other that you enter a hold and talk to Ops when you have a problem.
The crew had an indication that the crisis was over. And one thing that is passed on to EK from Boeing is that if the system tells you something is on or off, then you know it's on or off, as the redundancies make sure there is no false alarms, supposedly!
And with the data link, it's not a bad idea to get on the phone to Ops and say "Did you see what just hppened here", and of course they would have, plus they may have further information that is just not available up front, that may help you out.
Then just as they were catching their breath, the indication returns. Could have still been on the phone.
What hppened next? They diverted and everyone is safe.
Well done Blokes.
A diversion straight away may well have been a lot of peoples choice here, however with not being there and not knowing the circumstances, like weather, MEL's, aircraft history, traffic, ATC both high level and terminal, notams etc, it's hard to say with any assurance that that would be the best decision or not.
It could happen to any one at any time, and l hope if it happens again that the same result unfolds - everyone is safe and well.
halas
Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport
No where doeas it say land ASAP.
Why? I don't know, but l suspect those folk at Boeing have a reason.
EK procedures do not say one way or the other that you enter a hold and talk to Ops when you have a problem.
The crew had an indication that the crisis was over. And one thing that is passed on to EK from Boeing is that if the system tells you something is on or off, then you know it's on or off, as the redundancies make sure there is no false alarms, supposedly!
And with the data link, it's not a bad idea to get on the phone to Ops and say "Did you see what just hppened here", and of course they would have, plus they may have further information that is just not available up front, that may help you out.
Then just as they were catching their breath, the indication returns. Could have still been on the phone.
What hppened next? They diverted and everyone is safe.
Well done Blokes.
A diversion straight away may well have been a lot of peoples choice here, however with not being there and not knowing the circumstances, like weather, MEL's, aircraft history, traffic, ATC both high level and terminal, notams etc, it's hard to say with any assurance that that would be the best decision or not.
It could happen to any one at any time, and l hope if it happens again that the same result unfolds - everyone is safe and well.
halas
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NOTAM
If my memory serves me well, on the night of this flight in question, VOMM was closed for runway maintenance and required 30 minutes notice to be opened for an emergency. Also a number of airports on this route were closed on the same night, to add to the pressure.
Like the professional aviators on this thread have said, drop the analysis and let the boys in flight safety
do there job.
Like the professional aviators on this thread have said, drop the analysis and let the boys in flight safety
do there job.
Last edited by blueside^; 2nd Oct 2003 at 03:33.
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Halas:
Hope you are not coming up for the command interview, 'cuz you got two majors completely wrong in that effervescent little post.
"No where does it say 'Land Asap' ?" Have a look at the Boeing FCTM Non-Normal Operations section 6 page 2 and you will find that "land at the nearest suitable airport" means precisely that.
The crew had some "indication the problem was over"? Nothing in the cargo fire procedure allows the crew to make that judgement. Once the warning has activated the airplane is to be put on the ground.
Time to start studying
Hope you are not coming up for the command interview, 'cuz you got two majors completely wrong in that effervescent little post.
"No where does it say 'Land Asap' ?" Have a look at the Boeing FCTM Non-Normal Operations section 6 page 2 and you will find that "land at the nearest suitable airport" means precisely that.
The crew had some "indication the problem was over"? Nothing in the cargo fire procedure allows the crew to make that judgement. Once the warning has activated the airplane is to be put on the ground.
Time to start studying
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There would be consequences for not contacting company in event of anything where I work. They will tell you when and where to divert, and if you don't like it, well, your sad story will be taught in the recurrent ground school during the "I once knew this crew...." phase.
Trash du Blanc
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The following is taken verbatim from my company's MD-11 QRH under "CRG FIRE LWR ___":
CRG FIRE LWR____
Consequence:
LAND AT NEAREST SUITABLE AIRPORT
- But - if the Chennai runway was closed it was indeed NOT suitable, was it.....
CRG FIRE LWR____
Consequence:
LAND AT NEAREST SUITABLE AIRPORT
- But - if the Chennai runway was closed it was indeed NOT suitable, was it.....
Pilots' Pal
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Stormcloud,
I would suggest you get down ASAP regardless (I hope you would if I were flying with you). Stay in the air only as long as it takes to get to a suitable airport. Even if any fire were successfully extingished, it may have caused damage.
I would suggest you get down ASAP regardless (I hope you would if I were flying with you). Stay in the air only as long as it takes to get to a suitable airport. Even if any fire were successfully extingished, it may have caused damage.
Let's just imagine that there had been time to get the Swissair MD-11 to Halifax Airport, even though this was unlikely, based on what I read about the simulator tests, even if the crew had declared an emergency and quickly flown a vector straight to the nearest open runway. [Weren't the beancounters clever and wise to have mandated only two-pilot cockpits in complex widebody aircraft?]
If everyone had made it down evacuation chutes, then would the survivors and their family members prefer that the Swissair crew had delayed their approach in order to finish a long and intricate checklist?
Another hypothetical example: what if the Valuejet DC-9 had suffered a different sort of fire, which had stopped for a few minutes (at that time no cargo smoke detectors/extinguishers were installed), allowing the crew a short break to call Dispatch, but then the fire had re-ignited? If our planes have an engine or APU fire/bleed air leak, and the DC Transfer Bus fails, the fire signals simply go away.
Do many foreign airline Flight Operations and corporate cultures (in various nations) not allow a Captain to do whatever he/she feels necessary, in order to ensure safety of flight? Either the Captain has the authority, or does not-there is NO middle ground. Of course not every airport or runway is suitable, but I'm beginning to wonder if some airlines give Dispatch the ultimate authority, because of the Beancounters' often unreasonably invasive influences within most airlines....
If everyone had made it down evacuation chutes, then would the survivors and their family members prefer that the Swissair crew had delayed their approach in order to finish a long and intricate checklist?
Another hypothetical example: what if the Valuejet DC-9 had suffered a different sort of fire, which had stopped for a few minutes (at that time no cargo smoke detectors/extinguishers were installed), allowing the crew a short break to call Dispatch, but then the fire had re-ignited? If our planes have an engine or APU fire/bleed air leak, and the DC Transfer Bus fails, the fire signals simply go away.
Do many foreign airline Flight Operations and corporate cultures (in various nations) not allow a Captain to do whatever he/she feels necessary, in order to ensure safety of flight? Either the Captain has the authority, or does not-there is NO middle ground. Of course not every airport or runway is suitable, but I'm beginning to wonder if some airlines give Dispatch the ultimate authority, because of the Beancounters' often unreasonably invasive influences within most airlines....
Trash du Blanc
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OK now I've got the one I was looking for - B-727 Flight Manual red tabs:
LOWER CARGO SMOKE WARNING
WARNING: Inflight fires are extremely dangerous. The captain should start an immediate diversion and descent (when applicable) to the nearest suitable airport. There should be no hesitation at this point. Start action to get the aircraft on the ground.
Bit of a difference from the 777....
LOWER CARGO SMOKE WARNING
WARNING: Inflight fires are extremely dangerous. The captain should start an immediate diversion and descent (when applicable) to the nearest suitable airport. There should be no hesitation at this point. Start action to get the aircraft on the ground.
Bit of a difference from the 777....
Dropp pilot
Yes l agree with what you are saying.
However, from the FCTM section 6 page 2, as you so appropriately pointed out and l quote:
“Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport” is a phrase used in Boeing Operations
Manuals. This section explains the basis for that statement and how it is applied.
In a non-normal situation, the pilot-in-command, having the authority and
responsibility for operation and safety of the flight, must make the decision to
continue the flight as planned or divert.
And on page three:
For persistent smoke or a fire which cannot positively be confirmed to be
completely extinguished, the safest course of action typically requires the earliest
possible descent, landing and consideration of passenger evacuation. This may
dictate landing at the nearest airport appropriate for the airplane type, rather than
the nearest suitable airport normally used for the route segment where the incident
occurs.
Land ASAP? NO. it is time to make a decision. It's not a directive.
And the second point is that over many years l have been taught that just because the indication has gone, doesn't mean the problem has.
During training on the 777 it was emphasized to me that the indication system has fault back up.
In this case a DET FIRE CARGO XXX would illuminate if the system wasn't working.
Assuming that it was working then the indication was that the fire threat was removed, perhaps.
Do l agree with assuming that everything is fine if the indication is gone? No.
So thank you for your pointed opinion for me to start studying. l will try and remember to contact you for greater wisdom in the future.
l still think they did well.
halas
However, from the FCTM section 6 page 2, as you so appropriately pointed out and l quote:
“Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport” is a phrase used in Boeing Operations
Manuals. This section explains the basis for that statement and how it is applied.
In a non-normal situation, the pilot-in-command, having the authority and
responsibility for operation and safety of the flight, must make the decision to
continue the flight as planned or divert.
And on page three:
For persistent smoke or a fire which cannot positively be confirmed to be
completely extinguished, the safest course of action typically requires the earliest
possible descent, landing and consideration of passenger evacuation. This may
dictate landing at the nearest airport appropriate for the airplane type, rather than
the nearest suitable airport normally used for the route segment where the incident
occurs.
Land ASAP? NO. it is time to make a decision. It's not a directive.
And the second point is that over many years l have been taught that just because the indication has gone, doesn't mean the problem has.
During training on the 777 it was emphasized to me that the indication system has fault back up.
In this case a DET FIRE CARGO XXX would illuminate if the system wasn't working.
Assuming that it was working then the indication was that the fire threat was removed, perhaps.
Do l agree with assuming that everything is fine if the indication is gone? No.
So thank you for your pointed opinion for me to start studying. l will try and remember to contact you for greater wisdom in the future.
l still think they did well.
halas
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...just to add another rumour...
Please bear in mind that this is a RUMOUR........
The three bags in question were UNSCREENED diplomatic bags.....
...and that once on the ground and the cargo door was opened, the addition of oxygen caused the fire to restart......
So the basic premise to my way of thinking, particularly with a fire, is that while there is a chance of it being a faulty indication, as the aircraft commander you have to make a decision (although some companies obviously think that you should discuss it with them first).
I think it should be highlighted that the Operations Controller you speak to (the Senior Management Network Control or SMNC in this case) may not be, and certainly in EK's case, is not a pilot. (Would a pilot really authorise a single engine ferry from 2 hours out of DXB to return when ECAM states in Amber, LAND ASAP)
The over reliance of an Operations Controller to make your decision for you is inexcusable; should you really get that extra pay if all you do is delegate your responsibility to someone on the end of a SatPhone??
Take the information you are presented with, decide what you want to do, set it up and get going in the right direction and then if time permits, talk to operations and inform them of your decision and glean any pertinent information you can to help with your case....
...but please don't ask them what you should be doing
Better safe than sorry, wouldn't you agree?
PS just my opinion!!
The three bags in question were UNSCREENED diplomatic bags.....
...and that once on the ground and the cargo door was opened, the addition of oxygen caused the fire to restart......
So the basic premise to my way of thinking, particularly with a fire, is that while there is a chance of it being a faulty indication, as the aircraft commander you have to make a decision (although some companies obviously think that you should discuss it with them first).
I think it should be highlighted that the Operations Controller you speak to (the Senior Management Network Control or SMNC in this case) may not be, and certainly in EK's case, is not a pilot. (Would a pilot really authorise a single engine ferry from 2 hours out of DXB to return when ECAM states in Amber, LAND ASAP)
The over reliance of an Operations Controller to make your decision for you is inexcusable; should you really get that extra pay if all you do is delegate your responsibility to someone on the end of a SatPhone??
Take the information you are presented with, decide what you want to do, set it up and get going in the right direction and then if time permits, talk to operations and inform them of your decision and glean any pertinent information you can to help with your case....
...but please don't ask them what you should be doing
Better safe than sorry, wouldn't you agree?
PS just my opinion!!