Swiss pilots given inaccurate maps?
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Douglas, you're fully correct. It only stresses how important the bloody file is. If what you read on the display or hear from ATC does not match with what stands on the map, then you might get Nassenwil.
If you base your descent relying on a map where no hights is given for the hills surrounding the airport, you get overconfident and you might be "landing" at night on the trees in Bassedorf, short before the runway. An so on. Good luck.
If you base your descent relying on a map where no hights is given for the hills surrounding the airport, you get overconfident and you might be "landing" at night on the trees in Bassedorf, short before the runway. An so on. Good luck.
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411a. Strongly suggest you keep your shallow posts to youself. Every where you venture on pprune you leave trail of verbal excrement.
Pretty much in line with your fantasy airline (BS). I would have to guess that after Air Atlanta fired you and no airline has been willing to put up with your attitude for more than a couple of months since then, that is why you are now having to invent your own. In your head that is! Just like your contracting agency!
You were a lousy pilot and a bull sh***er back then and you are proving that time has not changed a thing.
Lay off the mescal you wasted nutter, and get a life!
Pretty much in line with your fantasy airline (BS). I would have to guess that after Air Atlanta fired you and no airline has been willing to put up with your attitude for more than a couple of months since then, that is why you are now having to invent your own. In your head that is! Just like your contracting agency!
You were a lousy pilot and a bull sh***er back then and you are proving that time has not changed a thing.
Lay off the mescal you wasted nutter, and get a life!
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So Flybob, you know all about us then, do you.
Well lets see...in the last three months we have raised five million, and with meetings this week, fifteen more in the pot, aircraft selected for heavy maintenance, management folks at other airlines have given notice to join our small company, exactly 86 CV's on file from experienced folks looking for work (will need more)...not all that bad, considering. And no intention of Swiss/Sabena-like mistakes.
You just have sour grapes because you were not selected for senior check and training a few short years ago, and no wonder, no prior tracable training experience. ...so back in your box.
In the case of Swiss, clearly there are problems, and suspect that infighting between the two former pilot groups, together with rather poor management up to this point, may well spell the end.
If so, there is lots of spare capacity available in Europe to fill the void...somehow this is always lost on those within the company.
Especially flight crew.
Well lets see...in the last three months we have raised five million, and with meetings this week, fifteen more in the pot, aircraft selected for heavy maintenance, management folks at other airlines have given notice to join our small company, exactly 86 CV's on file from experienced folks looking for work (will need more)...not all that bad, considering. And no intention of Swiss/Sabena-like mistakes.
You just have sour grapes because you were not selected for senior check and training a few short years ago, and no wonder, no prior tracable training experience. ...so back in your box.
In the case of Swiss, clearly there are problems, and suspect that infighting between the two former pilot groups, together with rather poor management up to this point, may well spell the end.
If so, there is lots of spare capacity available in Europe to fill the void...somehow this is always lost on those within the company.
Especially flight crew.
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The thread is about the maps on board Swiss aircraft, that are inaccurate.....not some personality problem or CFIT's...
If everyone has Jeppessen, everyone would be in the same position wrt accuracy/ inaccuracy. But I can asure you, if there is a problem with Jepp's, they will be corrected quickly. Will Swiss correct their mistake quickly...???? Hmmm, how quickly?? Let the FOCA ground the company, then see how soon something will be done about the situation. If you want to talk about accidents, how long after some incidents with respect to the crew member, did Bassersdorf happen?? Nothing wrong if maps, whether self made, are ACCURATE!!!
If you or your family would fly as passenger on an airline and you find out about such, would you be happy to be passenger on that same airline again??? The bush telegraph will run faster through international circles than bushmen can deliver a kill....
If everyone has Jeppessen, everyone would be in the same position wrt accuracy/ inaccuracy. But I can asure you, if there is a problem with Jepp's, they will be corrected quickly. Will Swiss correct their mistake quickly...???? Hmmm, how quickly?? Let the FOCA ground the company, then see how soon something will be done about the situation. If you want to talk about accidents, how long after some incidents with respect to the crew member, did Bassersdorf happen?? Nothing wrong if maps, whether self made, are ACCURATE!!!
If you or your family would fly as passenger on an airline and you find out about such, would you be happy to be passenger on that same airline again??? The bush telegraph will run faster through international circles than bushmen can deliver a kill....
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The 'problem' with maps (or accuracy thereof) is but a small tip of the iceberg with regard to airlines in general these days.
And flight crew, to their own detriment, generally exascerbate the problem, to a large degree.
All too often individual flight crew (or their designated represenatives) bit@h and moan about petty things, while at the same time ignoring the big picture...or safety (maps for instance).
Bottom line, if they cry 'wolf' too many times, is it any wonder that airline managements turn a deaf ear...they are so busy running around putting out fires that threaten to consume the very company that everyone derives their livelyhood from...and in todays very competitive world, it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Oh, and I can hear the refrain now...
they owe me a job because of my loyality ...and, the pay i'm receiving is not what i'm worth....or, not enough time off for the family....or, too long for upgrade. The list is endless.
Another bottom line...companies owe you absolutely nothing except the salary you earn from daily/weekly/monthly work.
And in agreement with the contract you signed...and in many cases it is not worth the paper it is printed on, anyway.
You have to make you own fortune, anyway you can.
Simple as that.
And flight crew, to their own detriment, generally exascerbate the problem, to a large degree.
All too often individual flight crew (or their designated represenatives) bit@h and moan about petty things, while at the same time ignoring the big picture...or safety (maps for instance).
Bottom line, if they cry 'wolf' too many times, is it any wonder that airline managements turn a deaf ear...they are so busy running around putting out fires that threaten to consume the very company that everyone derives their livelyhood from...and in todays very competitive world, it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Oh, and I can hear the refrain now...
they owe me a job because of my loyality ...and, the pay i'm receiving is not what i'm worth....or, not enough time off for the family....or, too long for upgrade. The list is endless. Another bottom line...companies owe you absolutely nothing except the salary you earn from daily/weekly/monthly work.
And in agreement with the contract you signed...and in many cases it is not worth the paper it is printed on, anyway.
You have to make you own fortune, anyway you can.
Simple as that.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Pardon me if you couldn't draw something of a parallel between the Air New Zealand Mount Erebus CFIT, and the current fiasco in Swiss.
In both cases, incorrect navigation data was/is being given to the pilots - data which proved FATAL in the Air New Zealand case, costing that company a great deal of publicity and an enormous conspiracy between company and New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority, as they attempted to blame the (deceased) flight crew for the crash of the DC10.
To draw a comparison for you, 124.8:-
Assume that a Swiss aircraft has an accident operating into one of the destination airports for which these incorrect charts have been issued (or perhaps into one where the inaccuracies are, as yet, undiscovered, and the crew unaware). Following the Mount Erebus scenario, Swiss would try to blame the crew whilst being KNOWINGLY aware that it was the company's information provided to the crew that caused the fatal errors!
(Sorry chaps...411A wrote, "Well lets see...in the last three months we have raised five million, and with meetings this week, fifteen more in the pot, aircraft selected for heavy maintenance, management folks at other airlines have given notice to join our small company, exactly 86 CV's on file from experienced folks looking for work (will need more)...not all that bad, considering." I recall reading similar garbage from you about 3 or 4 years ago, 411, including something like, "We already have our Chief Flight Engineer picked out....xx number of highly experienced pilot cv's on file...
Be careful the police aren't watching you, 411, they may have you up for public m@sturbation
In both cases, incorrect navigation data was/is being given to the pilots - data which proved FATAL in the Air New Zealand case, costing that company a great deal of publicity and an enormous conspiracy between company and New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority, as they attempted to blame the (deceased) flight crew for the crash of the DC10.
To draw a comparison for you, 124.8:-
Assume that a Swiss aircraft has an accident operating into one of the destination airports for which these incorrect charts have been issued (or perhaps into one where the inaccuracies are, as yet, undiscovered, and the crew unaware). Following the Mount Erebus scenario, Swiss would try to blame the crew whilst being KNOWINGLY aware that it was the company's information provided to the crew that caused the fatal errors!
(Sorry chaps...411A wrote, "Well lets see...in the last three months we have raised five million, and with meetings this week, fifteen more in the pot, aircraft selected for heavy maintenance, management folks at other airlines have given notice to join our small company, exactly 86 CV's on file from experienced folks looking for work (will need more)...not all that bad, considering." I recall reading similar garbage from you about 3 or 4 years ago, 411, including something like, "We already have our Chief Flight Engineer picked out....xx number of highly experienced pilot cv's on file...
Be careful the police aren't watching you, 411, they may have you up for public m@sturbation
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It may seem so Robert V, but consider...
Swiss Air, an extreamly well run/respected company for many years, with top-notch pilots and operating procedures, is run down the drain by inept management in buying into the Sabena bottomless pit.
Then, we have CrossAir, clearly another rather well run company, combined with the what remain(s) of Swiss Air, to form a company without proper direction...or, as it turns out, management.
Two pilot groups, each experienced in their own day-to-day operations, thrown together helter-skelter...and the CrossAir guys wanting big aeroplane upgrades (even tho most wouldn't know what to do with a heavy jet if it bit 'em)...and the ex-Swiss Air guys, tromping all over the CrossAir guys, trying to steal their jobs.
Is it any wonder accurate maps get lost in the shuffle?
A public relations nightmare for all concerned, that's for sure.
Edit for additional comment,
The good Kaptin M should know all about 'public activities' as it was there for all to see...in OZ, 14 years ago.
Swiss Air, an extreamly well run/respected company for many years, with top-notch pilots and operating procedures, is run down the drain by inept management in buying into the Sabena bottomless pit.
Then, we have CrossAir, clearly another rather well run company, combined with the what remain(s) of Swiss Air, to form a company without proper direction...or, as it turns out, management.
Two pilot groups, each experienced in their own day-to-day operations, thrown together helter-skelter...and the CrossAir guys wanting big aeroplane upgrades (even tho most wouldn't know what to do with a heavy jet if it bit 'em)...and the ex-Swiss Air guys, tromping all over the CrossAir guys, trying to steal their jobs.
Is it any wonder accurate maps get lost in the shuffle?
A public relations nightmare for all concerned, that's for sure.
Edit for additional comment,
The good Kaptin M should know all about 'public activities' as it was there for all to see...in OZ, 14 years ago.
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No Kaptin, there is no parallel between the Erebus crash and the current debate about inaccurate Swiss charts. Any professoinal pilot knows that amendments, revisions and Notams are an almost daily chore. He therefore applies airmanship to update and cross-check his navigation using every available means. The flight plan track provided to the Air New Zealand Antarctic flight might have been offset to that which the crew expected, but the fact remains that they did not check it and that Captain Collins descended below minimum safe altitude without having positively ascertained his position.
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I honestly cannot fully blame airlines for out-of-date publications. Captains are finally responsible and, in my experience, almost all will be found wanting.
Every time you fly, check your updates. For example, Jepps are amended weekly. If you accept Jepps with amendent 2 weeks old, your own standard is on the skids. If your company will not co-operate, buy your own publications, change company or get out of the business!
If you are so full of **** to think it doesn't matter, watch this space.
Every time you fly, check your updates. For example, Jepps are amended weekly. If you accept Jepps with amendent 2 weeks old, your own standard is on the skids. If your company will not co-operate, buy your own publications, change company or get out of the business!
If you are so full of **** to think it doesn't matter, watch this space.
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Maybe you should ´read this space´ before you start saying the obvious that pilots have to fly with current charts.
This thread is not about about out-of-date publications! We were (in August actually, gooooooood morning!) talking about "inaccurate" charts, i.e. charts that were not correct from the date they were published and inserted into an updated route manual!
Sleep tight!
This thread is not about about out-of-date publications! We were (in August actually, gooooooood morning!) talking about "inaccurate" charts, i.e. charts that were not correct from the date they were published and inserted into an updated route manual!
Sleep tight!
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IMHO, this thread is going the wrong way. The problem is not wether Swiss Pilot was given inacurrate charts or not.
It is that the management seemingly refuses to correct the situation!
If you think Jeppesen chart are never missing something or never had been misprinted, get real, it has happen in the past and it WILL happen in the future. No system is perfect. But the notam is issued as soon as the problem is noticed by anyone.
What is creating concern to me is someone that knows of a safety problem and refuses to correct it.
But I am not an insider, so I may be missing something here.
It is that the management seemingly refuses to correct the situation!
If you think Jeppesen chart are never missing something or never had been misprinted, get real, it has happen in the past and it WILL happen in the future. No system is perfect. But the notam is issued as soon as the problem is noticed by anyone.
What is creating concern to me is someone that knows of a safety problem and refuses to correct it.
But I am not an insider, so I may be missing something here.
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Don't see the point guys.
Yes there are misprinted maps. But there are NOTAMs to cover that. And BTW this is not mainly a Swiss problem. We carry LIDO charts. LIDO is a Lufthansa daughter. But as far as I can remember there were some misprints on Jepps as well.
Yes there are misprinted maps. But there are NOTAMs to cover that. And BTW this is not mainly a Swiss problem. We carry LIDO charts. LIDO is a Lufthansa daughter. But as far as I can remember there were some misprints on Jepps as well.
Last edited by what_goes_up; 17th Nov 2003 at 18:40.
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Not only that, but Jeppesen has a major problem with supplied databases to many GPS units.
Constant errors...followed by urgent NOTAMS on their website indicating thus, or notes with the databases themselves when received each 28 days...does not inspire confidence in their operation.
Think Jeppesen needs to get their collective act together.
Constant errors...followed by urgent NOTAMS on their website indicating thus, or notes with the databases themselves when received each 28 days...does not inspire confidence in their operation.
Think Jeppesen needs to get their collective act together.
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Here some infos as to the Jeppesen charts and their accuracy.
I’m not pointing out fingers at anybondy and missprints will occure
But results like that must be prevented.
The families of eight people who died with U.S. Commerce
Secretary Ron Brown in the crash of an Air Force transport
in Croatia are suing Jeppesen Sanderson for $170 million,
claiming it published an inaccurate chart that caused the
crash.
According to the suit, Jeppesen's chart changed the approach
procedures set by the Republic of Croatia for Cilipi
Airport. More specifically, the lawsuit claims the Jeppesen
chart contained a minimum descent altitude that was too low
and a nondirectional beacon approach procedure that couldn't
be conducted safely because of nearby mountains.
The suit also claims the chart didn't inform pilots that
only aircraft with two radios could safely execute the
approach, it didn't list the beacon radio stations to be
used for the approach and it failed to warn pilots of
dangers of the approach procedures.
Jeppesen denies the allegations.
I’m not pointing out fingers at anybondy and missprints will occure
But results like that must be prevented.
The families of eight people who died with U.S. Commerce
Secretary Ron Brown in the crash of an Air Force transport
in Croatia are suing Jeppesen Sanderson for $170 million,
claiming it published an inaccurate chart that caused the
crash.
According to the suit, Jeppesen's chart changed the approach
procedures set by the Republic of Croatia for Cilipi
Airport. More specifically, the lawsuit claims the Jeppesen
chart contained a minimum descent altitude that was too low
and a nondirectional beacon approach procedure that couldn't
be conducted safely because of nearby mountains.
The suit also claims the chart didn't inform pilots that
only aircraft with two radios could safely execute the
approach, it didn't list the beacon radio stations to be
used for the approach and it failed to warn pilots of
dangers of the approach procedures.
Jeppesen denies the allegations.
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Given that the aircraft involved was operated by the USAF, I wonder if the crew could actually read the chart in the first place, even if it was correct.
Reports at the time suggested that the subject aircraft was well off course, and far too low for the sector involved.
And further, if the stations were not listed on the chart in the first place, wonder just why the approach was started, considering the difficulties involved in navigating successfully.
More than likely, hotshots at the pointy end not quite knowing what they were doing.
Reports at the time suggested that the subject aircraft was well off course, and far too low for the sector involved.
And further, if the stations were not listed on the chart in the first place, wonder just why the approach was started, considering the difficulties involved in navigating successfully.
More than likely, hotshots at the pointy end not quite knowing what they were doing.