PIA Manchester Scare.
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Dear 411A, can't help but ask how often you have paxed with the likes of PIA on your hols? Or indeed how many others of us herewith use third world airlines for our leisure.
As someone else commented on Third World Licences, and the problems of slander, I too shall not be specific......however I remember being 'wet leased' to a third world country, and requiring their licence to operate their aircraft. I remember being quite stunned standing in their CAA equivalent office, facing their official. The Company Ops Manager with me was required to produce my UK ATPL, and then commence counting cash money into this official's hand. The process continued over several minutes, amazingly not a sound (other than my elevated breathing and heart rate) until this 'official' considered he had made enough 'dash', and handed over my nice shiny licence - which I still have. No exams, no questions, no Base Check, just the equivalent (then) of approximately £500.00. I queried it on our way out, and was told that it was the only way to obtain one within six months. During my 'tour' there, I saw two major accidents, three moderate, and knew of at least twice as many overall in country, all with the National and two Regional type carriers.
It sometimes does cost quite a lot more to fly with a UK/US/Western European operator (and some of the last mentioned are dubious!!!), but I would cancel the family hols rather than risk any of us on what passes for Airlines in most of the Third World. Anyone in any doubt at all need only consult accident stats world wide. PIA....
As someone else commented on Third World Licences, and the problems of slander, I too shall not be specific......however I remember being 'wet leased' to a third world country, and requiring their licence to operate their aircraft. I remember being quite stunned standing in their CAA equivalent office, facing their official. The Company Ops Manager with me was required to produce my UK ATPL, and then commence counting cash money into this official's hand. The process continued over several minutes, amazingly not a sound (other than my elevated breathing and heart rate) until this 'official' considered he had made enough 'dash', and handed over my nice shiny licence - which I still have. No exams, no questions, no Base Check, just the equivalent (then) of approximately £500.00. I queried it on our way out, and was told that it was the only way to obtain one within six months. During my 'tour' there, I saw two major accidents, three moderate, and knew of at least twice as many overall in country, all with the National and two Regional type carriers.
It sometimes does cost quite a lot more to fly with a UK/US/Western European operator (and some of the last mentioned are dubious!!!), but I would cancel the family hols rather than risk any of us on what passes for Airlines in most of the Third World. Anyone in any doubt at all need only consult accident stats world wide. PIA....
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Can't say much more than has already been said on this thread really, other than I've always found MAN ATC pretty much the best in the world.
If one of those guys tell me to go around, I wouldn't second guess them and carry on, especially if the ceiling was 400 feet.
As far as PIA bashing goes, I must admit to have seen some pretty hairy stuff from them over the years, particular favourites include landing well past the TD zone, and off centreline. I once followed one PIA A300 that burnt so much rubber on landing that we landed a bit deeper just so we could see the ground, there was that much tyre smoke hovering!
But that said, I do know some PIA guys and they're good operators. I guess from MAN they're operating at the edge of the performance envelope which is fine, but I agree that under JAA rules if an ATCO tells you to Go Around, then go around you should, no questions. It's a culture thing, as has been pointed out.
If one of those guys tell me to go around, I wouldn't second guess them and carry on, especially if the ceiling was 400 feet.
As far as PIA bashing goes, I must admit to have seen some pretty hairy stuff from them over the years, particular favourites include landing well past the TD zone, and off centreline. I once followed one PIA A300 that burnt so much rubber on landing that we landed a bit deeper just so we could see the ground, there was that much tyre smoke hovering!
But that said, I do know some PIA guys and they're good operators. I guess from MAN they're operating at the edge of the performance envelope which is fine, but I agree that under JAA rules if an ATCO tells you to Go Around, then go around you should, no questions. It's a culture thing, as has been pointed out.
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411A,
The PIA a/c in question landed 06L. The "Beer Garden" is at 24R Threshhold
.
I know the ATCO involved and "some" of the facts, BUT as NF01 says. Let's wait for the report.
As an aside, I've worked in Manch Tower since 1970
and have watched many MANY B747s of all marks and only one has the heart fluttering on departure.......and it's not Air Atlanta.
So until you have ALL the facts [including the pup] I would be like Dad, keep Mum.
But.....
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
The PIA a/c in question landed 06L. The "Beer Garden" is at 24R Threshhold
. I know the ATCO involved and "some" of the facts, BUT as NF01 says. Let's wait for the report.
As an aside, I've worked in Manch Tower since 1970
and have watched many MANY B747s of all marks and only one has the heart fluttering on departure.......and it's not Air Atlanta.So until you have ALL the facts [including the pup] I would be like Dad, keep Mum.
But..... we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Yes Techman, exactly
Until WE [inc me ] have all the facts.
Quote "I know the ATCO involved and SOME [my bolds] of the facts, but...et al
No I am not taking the "High Ground" or a "Moral" stance, and No not hitting below the belt.
Fact, 411A insinuated that any witness was a, p*ssed, b, incompetent, or c, in any other way just plane [sic] unreliable.
Fact, [just a "rough" calculation] I have watched1,825,000 [give or take +/- 15%] Departues. Very few have been "interesting",
06 single or 06L, a BCAL B707 off 06 in the wet, a VIR B742 [450pax] wet again. Both rotated "aroud" Link B/JA but 30% of PIA "Classic" Deps off this runway are "Quite" 10% "Rather" 2-3% "Very" Interesting.
This is not "Slagging" this is an "OBSERVASION" [speeling]
No, I do NOT consider myself to be an "Expert" on "Flight Dynamics" whether as a PPL, or Captain of a "Heavy"
What I am saying, is that "Not All Spotters Are 'Muppets'".
In fact some of the the "Spotters" are very clued up.
Any "Insider" info that I "may" have intimated was to remind EVERYBODY that only a few people have all the "Facts"
as I said "I don't", so let us ALL wait for the report [if any]
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Until WE [inc me ] have all the facts.
Quote "I know the ATCO involved and SOME [my bolds] of the facts, but...et al
No I am not taking the "High Ground" or a "Moral" stance, and No not hitting below the belt.
Fact, 411A insinuated that any witness was a, p*ssed, b, incompetent, or c, in any other way just plane [sic] unreliable.
Fact, [just a "rough" calculation] I have watched1,825,000 [give or take +/- 15%] Departues. Very few have been "interesting",
06 single or 06L, a BCAL B707 off 06 in the wet, a VIR B742 [450pax] wet again. Both rotated "aroud" Link B/JA but 30% of PIA "Classic" Deps off this runway are "Quite" 10% "Rather" 2-3% "Very" Interesting.
This is not "Slagging" this is an "OBSERVASION" [speeling]
No, I do NOT consider myself to be an "Expert" on "Flight Dynamics" whether as a PPL, or Captain of a "Heavy"
What I am saying, is that "Not All Spotters Are 'Muppets'".
In fact some of the the "Spotters" are very clued up.
Any "Insider" info that I "may" have intimated was to remind EVERYBODY that only a few people have all the "Facts"
as I said "I don't", so let us ALL wait for the report [if any]
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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My experience of controlling this "third world" operator is that they can be very slow in the climb out of both MAN & LHR. This is obviously due to the very heavy pax loads that they carry.
But as far as the crews are concerned they,unlike most of the US carriers,very rarely miss ATC calls and always give good notice if they are unable to achieve an ATC level clearance.
411A,
You do have a most unfortunate way of putting your point across and I would point to many of the US carriers as a "typically shoddy operation" if at least one of the crew doesn't bother to listen to ATC-often for 3 or 4 calls at a time. We all screw up at times-I guess even you have!!
But as far as the crews are concerned they,unlike most of the US carriers,very rarely miss ATC calls and always give good notice if they are unable to achieve an ATC level clearance.
411A,
You do have a most unfortunate way of putting your point across and I would point to many of the US carriers as a "typically shoddy operation" if at least one of the crew doesn't bother to listen to ATC-often for 3 or 4 calls at a time. We all screw up at times-I guess even you have!!
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250 knots.
You make a very good point about some US aircarriers...many of these guys just simply do not listen out, nor do some really understand European ops.
Have worked for several foreign (non US) airlines over the past thirty+ years and the 'Deltas' US Airs' Uniteds' etc have a lot to learn about operating out of their own territory.
I am generally their most severe critic.
You make a very good point about some US aircarriers...many of these guys just simply do not listen out, nor do some really understand European ops.
Have worked for several foreign (non US) airlines over the past thirty+ years and the 'Deltas' US Airs' Uniteds' etc have a lot to learn about operating out of their own territory.
I am generally their most severe critic.
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Why the PIA knocking?
I recall reading about a poorly handled (744) asymetric failure just after takeoff of by a US carrier, and the resultant yaw was not at all well handled by the PF, in fact the recovery by the PNF just averted the a/c from something far worse.
If this occured within PIA there would be the old chesnut "poor pilot skills in the third world" etc... and it would be dragged out every so often by (some) ppruners, however, it was a US carrier.
I can't find any references to this now, but I did read about it.. honest.
I recall reading about a poorly handled (744) asymetric failure just after takeoff of by a US carrier, and the resultant yaw was not at all well handled by the PF, in fact the recovery by the PNF just averted the a/c from something far worse.
If this occured within PIA there would be the old chesnut "poor pilot skills in the third world" etc... and it would be dragged out every so often by (some) ppruners, however, it was a US carrier.
I can't find any references to this now, but I did read about it.. honest.
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trium16,
UAL, at KSFO, B747-400.
Missed the top of the hill by 100 feet or so.
Good thing the Commander knew how to use the rudder properly, as the First Officer (PF) had clearly forgotton.
Many of the parking lot/beer garden 'experts' that chime in from time to time about alledged poor aircraft performance/pilot handling skills, would do well to actually read an authoritive publication about same, thereby increasing their limited knowledge.
UAL, at KSFO, B747-400.
Missed the top of the hill by 100 feet or so.
Good thing the Commander knew how to use the rudder properly, as the First Officer (PF) had clearly forgotton.
Many of the parking lot/beer garden 'experts' that chime in from time to time about alledged poor aircraft performance/pilot handling skills, would do well to actually read an authoritive publication about same, thereby increasing their limited knowledge.
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411A
Many of the parking lot/beer garden 'experts' that chime in from time to time about alledged poor aircraft performance/pilot handling skills, would do well to actually read an authoritive publication about same, thereby increasing their limited knowledge.
You also seem to conveniently ignore the fact that some of the 'experts' you are quick to dismiss actually possess quite a lot of authoritive publications on aircraft performance, and could probably quote them chapter and verse to you.
Anyway, back to the facts of this post, PIA were apparently told to go-round by ATC, an instruction the crew over-ruled. As has been pointed out by numerous people, if this was an issue it will be reported through the normal channels. End of.
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Capt Groper- the 310 in question is not quite part of the reef yet, it's still sitting on the side of the creek next to an Aeroflot IL-86. I'm sure it will be sunk soon though.
From the takeoff photo it looks like the runway has an upslope and that the a/c is over the grass. (Likely the photo was taken with a long lens which yields a short depth of field and the runway markings at the threshold are blurred while the grass seems to be in focus)
Can't say I see much in the way of margin for OEI, but long lenses can distort perspective.
Can't say I see much in the way of margin for OEI, but long lenses can distort perspective.
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Capt Groper.
Try another cheapshot,PIA has 6 airbus A310 and all are present and accounted for .
Pontious.
to answer your questions so that an amature like you can understand, yes they would have achieved the screen height of 35ft at V2 in the event of one engine failure at or after V1.
Try another cheapshot,PIA has 6 airbus A310 and all are present and accounted for .
Pontious.
to answer your questions so that an amature like you can understand, yes they would have achieved the screen height of 35ft at V2 in the event of one engine failure at or after V1.
Last edited by lumbalund; 2nd Sep 2003 at 13:59.