The end of the J-visa.
 

Here

Work-study visas for flight students set to end
By AOPA ePublishing staff

The U.S. Department of State has issued a statement of policy announcing its intent to end a program that allows foreign flight students to work while they study in the United States.

The J-1 visa program, which is slated to end in June 2010, offers foreign students a two-year visa to go through flight training and work as flight instructors to build flying time. Other training options will still exist, such as the F-1 student and M-1 vocational student visa, although neither allows the student to work.

Currently, eight U.S. flight schools train as many as 700 students each year using the J-1 visa program. Those schools estimate that their revenue could be cut in half if the program is ended.

“While this only impacts a small number of students, we are deeply disappointed that the State Department believes that flight training programs no longer further the public diplomacy mission of the United States,” said Craig Spence, AOPA vice president of aviation security “This country has long been a world leader in flight training, and we want to see that continue.”

Many foreign students want to train in the United States where costs are lower and access to training is more broadly available than in Europe and elsewhere. AOPA will be working with other aviation groups and the Small Business Administration to preserve, and hopefully expand, this training option.

:ok: Fantastic news for Americans ! :D

Well Leaky Lucy, please explain how it is good news for Americans, for the rest of us Humans

Finn
 

Apart from US Nationals who gain CPL's not having 700 foreigners to compete with for "Flight Instructor" jobs - I can't fathom out Lucy either:ugh:

The inverted commas around FI were intentional - someone else out there tell me that taking a student who gains their CPL just before lunch then becomes an Instructor before tea time is possibly not the best way to train people :oh:

What a good idea, get rid of all those pesky foreigners and their pesky thousands of Euro/Pounds/whatever and the country will be a much better place. Especially now that China owns the US. Just another little thing that'll make the recession worse.

You'd think the US would have learned their about making dumbass decisions after electing Bush for a second term.

Careful DP
 

Darren - you stand the risk of being labelled a - dare I say it "Liberal" - what a dreadful thing to be called in a Redneck world - goddamn - the guys a Liberal - lynch him!

Don't ever admit to having a brain - Senator John Mac will be called from the grave to expunge you from "The Land of the Free"

What we'll probably see in the future is a trend of a lot of people that would have come over here to do their training on the J1, will start looking more at South Africa, NZ & AUS. You'll probably also see a reduction in M1 visa's being used for flight training over time as those other locations become more & more popular with European's for training.
Good for Americans in the short term but definitely not the long term. Well i guess it's good news for the southern hemisphere!!

Ah well i will have no choice now but to take J1 visas route next year . When it rains it always seems to pour . First the end of the J1 , credit crunch , house prices dropping maybe recession and this could not have happened at a better time :(.

Americans select their government and fund it via taxation - this is not an uncommon model around the world. I don't consider it unreasonable for them to place restrictions on labour rights for non-citizens. I suspect their citizens hold similar views. If you believe your genes give you some inalienable right to work there i'd suggest you do some extensive lobbying of their electorate.

FairWeatherFlyer

I might have misunderstood you here. But i fail to see your point?

The J-1 visa has a pretty big restrictions on labour rights for non-citizens. Were talking deleting a labour possibility.
"us" european´s comes here spending a lot of money in US = good for US

Hurray no more europeans stealing cfi work, well sure but aren´t you bleeding off the market, so who is everybody going to teach when the flight school industri takes a dive?

But you´r right in that I do not have a saying in how americans should run their country neither do i claim to, im just glad for the opportunity i have over here.
My passion is flying, and my concern is the effect on that industry.
Sure it can move somewhere else as mentioned South Africa, NZ, Aus.
But it takes a long time to get it up and running before a another area can provide the possibilities for other people looking to start a career as pilots.

Well just my 5cent.:O

J1 Visa
 

This Just In! - Vertical Online Forums Effective December 2008, TC is planning to allow a person with a US commercial helicopter license (150 hours) to be able to come to Canada, show their US license and will be issued a Canadian commercial helicopter license.

NO flight test, NO exam!

On the flip side, a Canadian pilot cannot do the reciprocal in the US because they are 50 hours short.
Well not the end of the world for all you low timers down south, without the J1 visa wondering how to hr build , Still not gonna be easy as you still need work permit and the Canadians dont give em away, and some turbine time , but just maybe another option and the flight instructor option here not realistic for 150hr pilot as you need 400hrs for group 4 instructor rating ,but right place right time you never know, some companies here do hire low time to train them up, company I work for hires couple every year. Anyways seems to me low time friends from down south gonna get it all there own way. just my two cents worth , cheers.

American isolationism at its finest ;)

Oh well, there's always Canada, New Zealand, Australia... lot's of places where we can spend our money. Anyone know good school with program like Hillsboro, and similar prices ?

Very few Americans are going to be able to come up with the training funds now that easy credit is coming to an end. Without foreign student mulah, the larger US schools are going to either collapse or will have to change their business model.

Maybe we'll start seeing GOM companies start to contribute towards student training with some kind of employment contract, like the airlines used to do many years ago?

The other alternative has always existed, of course: find yourself a nice, chubby American girl and marry her. :yuk:

With the rest of the worlds aviation businesses requiring people to pay for a job (training, endorsements etc) I'd expect to see hell freeze over before any GOM operator went down that road.

well Bristow will not care to much. They only wanted titsusville ' just in case ' that Bush was opening up Atlantic drilling........... he did what now ??? They suddenley have a east coast base ??

US policy documents http://exchanges.state.gov/education...terim_0607.pdf

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-15783.pdf

The Dept. of State found that there are eight flight instruction schools and approximately 350 students in J-1 status studying among them. All flight training programs no longer are viewed to further the public diplomacy mission of the Dept. Dept. of Homeland Security has been better charged with this responsibility according to Dept. of State and flight instruction students will continue to qualify under the M-1 status through DHS.

The J1 visa is an exchange program visa where students, not just pilots, go to the US, learn a profession or trade and then return to their own countries to teach their citizens the same skills. Staying in the US to do flight instruction falls vaguely under this definition but how many of these J1 instructors ever go back to do instruction in their own countries? That is an honest question. Working as a CFI has been tolerated thus far, it is the "overstays" that have brought this issue to the point where the J1 will not be available to pilots anymore. Once again, the ungrateful minority has ruined a good thing for the law-abiding majority!

As mentioned in the 2006 thread, reciprocity is supposed to work both ways. M1 visas will still enable students to go to the US to do all the training up to CPL level, since it is so much cheaper than Europe it is still a bargain. Americans cant work in Europe without going through a lot more hassle than the J1. Everyone seems to hate the US until they want a green card, I saw whines about the DV or green card lottery not being available to UK citizens, so what. The UK is a first world country where everything is available, at a price. The green card lottery is an immigration opportunity designed for countries where people don't have all the opportunities, not just a way to selfishly get work for a few years before going home. I am unaware of any other countries even having such a lottery, correct me if I am wrong.

If the system in the UK, or the rest of Europe, makes it too expensive or difficult to fly there, put pressure on the various CAA's to change instead of blaming the State Department. Since the airlines and manufacturers live off EU and government subsidies, why does the JAA/CAA not reduce costs to pilots by being subsidised too? I don't have the answers but blaming the US for what is actually a local problem does not make sense. Those who do go back to Europe generally earn much higher salaries than their American equals, even allowing for the higher cost of living. That does not seem entirely fair. I had the opposite experience to most, lived in Spain with an FAA ATP and the Spanish CAA was completely uncooperative. They insisted I had an EU passport to fly as PIC, even though I was a resident of Spain and had the legal right to work there. Is that reciprocity? However, I could fly there as PIC in a foreign registered aircraft, carrying Spanish citizens, sharing the same airspace as their own pilots and all that without a JAA licence or EU passport. :ugh: I subsequently did the JAA / UKCAA licence but I do not see why there cannot be a standardised licence valid anywhere in the world, physics remain the same all over. Subject for another thread.

I don't have a dog in this fight and it does not affect me in the slightest, I just dislike hypocrisy.

1) Certain schools will suffer.

2) Not everyone coming to the US on J1 gets instructing job.

3) Some of those who come, are students for US citizens as well

4) FW schools definitely take advantage of cheap, hardworking and knowledgeable instructors

5) 'premium' JAA schools will definitely suffer short term, but then, hey, we have H1 visa if s:mad: hits the fan. Not flexible though

6) Yeah, I can understand sentiment of RW US citizen students, but if they go after their career, they'd be just fine. Unlike those Europeans who blew all the could possibly scratch on RW CFI and don't have any chance of getting 'real job' without hours.

7) those skint FAA CFI guys (and gals) coming back to Europe with no more money left and still 50-100 hours to get only to start expensive FI training (thank God for Bristow's JAA FI, well, who knows for how long if EASA rules get mad - see end of JAA instructing outside Europe threads)

8) I'm finishing my PPL (H) and leave it to show off to girls in bar and keep on flying planks if all this thunderstorm hits..

Especially as some of us still need lots of savings/strike of fortune to fundraise for CPL/CFI training.

I hope this 'statement of policy' doesn't go through and loses enough steam if certain influential lobbying is exercised on behalf of the aviation training industry. God bless (this status quo). Whoa.

I sincerely hope these words are no more than the rumours or suggestions of finishing J1 for aviation students.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE MEDICAL J1 STUDENTS/TRAINEES? And other professions and training? Why just us? I need J1 to go on.

BTW, some schools have steady supply of Chinese, Taiwanese and Indian sponsored ab-initio cadets (FW wise) so they'd be just fine with M1s.

As for F1, it's fine, but will drive already superexpensive training even higher, shelling out extra 8-12k USD a year for 'degree' one doesn't really need for flying in Europe or for getting the funding (we're not Americans).

Yeah. Those of you who feel against slave/cheap labour for flight instructing:

Get a grip. Who do you think wants/needs more money out of instructing (unless very busy most of time)?
American who has to support himself, pay off loan or provide for own young family
OR
European guy who came here and spend shedloads of dosh, flowing INTO US economy, paid for all himself/from home and only wants to get some time flown for whatever meagre hourly wage/salary he/she can get? Even the ones who don't need to cover living costs as they have money for living after training?

So the cost of paying decent salary/wages to instructors will be then projected into cost of training for wannabes.
Also, J1 students with over year of work visa left, will go to work for school far from 'civilisation' or to not so great place, somewhere 'locals' don't go or want to/arent any around...

I, for once, would love to go and spend my money in NZ or OZ school if it was financially viable. I even started my aviation career plans with heli schools in Australia. Thanks to AUD getting stronger and the prices 'down under' as they are, not easy for rotary flying. We can work part time while studying, outside schools, but then, paying for courses we don't need, international fees just to stay and get flying experience?

Plus around 400 TT for instructing there, btw. Quite a blow. Check out details yourself.

I'm off to check out the seriousness of the release.
Not sure I'll fundraise enough until June 2010. Otherwise they'd be finishing them anytime soon so no more J1 persons on US soil by then..

Happy flying (hate flare part of autos in Robbie... still need it better)

Always wondered, where DO you guys get all that cash for US training? Seems like every one of you shows up with a mountain of it. Did most of you earn it, or are your parents just very generous?

Sold my ass to the bank, I´m their assboyfor the rest of my life now.:*
But my office view is better then the bank managers.:ok:

I earnt all mine, $65k for training and living, all gone. I'm $20k in debt now but I'm working as a pilot which was my goal and I'm just starting to pay it off.

I was expecting most of the people who went to Bristow's Academy to be spoilt rich kids but I was surprised to see that they were less than 1 in 5, maybe even 1 in 10, most people there were living out their life's ambition.

yeah. Another thing.

Not sure about Bristow Academy, but there's more US helicopter instructors teaching Germans and Norwegians than US students in proportion. Thus looking to me like all the heli students being trained by Americans SHOULDN'T BE HERE TO LET AMERICANS HOURBUILD ON THEM DAMN FAST. Right?
(KHIO -main part of Hillsboro Aviation. Not sure about numbers in KTTD since it's not for M1/J1 students)

As for this almost xenophobic, patriotic protectionst feelings, without all those European an Asian sponsored (or otherwise) cadets flying planks, there'd be hundreds (if not low thousands) of American airplane instructors without work - training foreigners, companies without business from foreigners, employing American in maintenance, menial and office jobs in flight schools. J1 students are a drop in a pond. J1 rotary even less. The total of foreigners training in the US isn't.

Only blunt people would want non-US aviation students to steer clear from this country as they greatly benefit it. Aviation in the USA wouldn't be what it is without it.

Also, not the best time, but regionals in the US have been recruiting domestic CPL/MEIR graduates into F/O seat. So in FW world, getting to 1000TT or around isn't as magical and quintessential as for rotary Europeans.

As for 'Homeland Security' reasons, J1 students are career minded aviation enthusiasts who plan their career. Not one in hoardes of people flying here recreationally or on M1 without intent to work here temporarily. M1 guys are 'higher risk'. Not to mention all the JAA PPLs who get 'piggyback' FAA PPL and fly around Florida. They're even worse since they were not indoctrinated to FAA standards, aren't they? :ugh: :eek:

Can't find anything on US website. AOPA and AvWeb quoting AOPA

Are you freakin drunk martin I can not understand a freakin word!!

WigWam---I'm with you--Have NO clue what Martin is talking about.

I for one am getting masters in engineering, to get a decent paid job - as recently, not so many people in UK and Germany thought about working in that field ;) Just to rise enough money to do what I want - and that is flying rotorcrafts.

J-1 is useful as it allow to train, and than work in the same environment for short period of time - thus giving young pilots ability to learn more than what he can get from simple CPL(H) course. I believe its like driving a car. You may pass the test, get your driving license, but until you drive more on you're own, you can't say you can drive. Fresh CPL(H) pilots don't know squat about working as helicopter pilot until they do some time as one. Without J-1s, people like me, after training will have to switch visas - as I'm aware, is not so simple - or go somewhere else to finalize their learning process.

Training in the US is very tempting, as the prices in Europe are ridiculous - let's say that in US I can do PPL(H), CPL(H), IR, FI, turbine transition, mountain flying and long line operations training for the same amount of money as the simple PPL(H) cost here

Well, it's free market, and it do not like void, by the time I rise my funds there will be other possibilities to chose from, equal or better than the US with J-1. It is only pity to see US closing down without apparent reasons.

This will lead to a shortage of helicopter pilots for the North Sea.

Many helicopter students come to the USA, become Heli CFI's and then go home with 1,000 hours. North Sea operators will have to 1) lower their standards to 200-300 hours 2) hire more military pilolts if they can find them 3) allow USA pilots to emigrate to the EU

I don't think this will affect airlines as they may be will to take on 300 hour pilots.

A lowering of the hour requirements for co-pilots is not necessarily the same thing as lowering standards; 1000 hours gained as an instructor in the US has questionable relevance to the rôle of a North Sea P2.

Why not a return to the airline-style system of yesteryear? Take a bloke straight out of Oxford/Cabair, with 100 hours helo time and a fresh CPL; stick him in the left seat and off ye go.

Tis the favoured way among European airlines: mould the new in their own image, afore they pick up/develop wicked ways.

Amen

Which school in Aus is conducting JAA rotary training? I was under the impression that the only JAA (rotary) schools outside JAA-land were in the USA?

Maybe you will see more American pilots in the North Sea after 2010 :confused:

The end of the J1 will be bad for everyone- foreign students, American CFI's, American schools.

On a side note, can we put an end to the use of the word "rotorcrafts" ? :ugh:

The plural of rotorcraft is rotorcraft. :ok:

I agree, but many posters (like Lt.Fubar) are not speaking English as their first language. They do very well I think.

I believe any helo training done outside of the USA will cost more per hour. Several years ago I looked into a Canadian CPL(H) conversion, the CAN was only worth .65 to one USD at the time and it still cost less to fly an R22 in the states.

I'd like to see what the rates are for R22's, S300 in Aus or NZ.

UK accept FAA license for flying PIC in UK registered a/c, so Canada may be very interesting option right now, even though prices are 30-50% higher than in US, it's still a bargain compared to European ones. But Scandinavians and others may have a problem.

Although, as I said, the void will be filled. Probably by the first who allow/enforce biofuel, which may reduce the flight-per-hour costs, as the prices of Avgas are getting a bit ridiculous these days.

Ups, sorry about that.

Are you sure? I heard it mostly depend on the employer, but the US-UK agreement makes no distinction between commercial and non-commercial use.

I'm a German citizen, currently working in the US as a CFI on a J1 visa..

my training here cost me around $60,000. During my time working here, I will make $30,000 at the most. And most of that will be spent here to cover my costs of living.
Someone explain to me how this is bad for the US economy / aviation industry?

Av8rdan's World of Flying

Some people are making this out to be a sudden, petulant outbreak from the State Department, it is not. It has nothing to do with terrorism, borders or GW Bush, its those J1 students, from all professions, who have overstayed their visas to work illegally in the US. Unfortunately, it affects pilots who are a fraction of the total J1 visas issued every year and as a group are probably the least to blame. That is an assumption on my part because most pilots I know tend to be law abiding and more conscientious than the average :E and employers have to be careful who they hire so they also toe the line, when convenient.

Cross pollination of ideas, training and techniques is always a good thing and it is a pity that some of the experience as a CFI will be lost. The real losers are the flight schools who will need to train and employ US CFI's for the JAA syllabus and they will need to pay more because they cant use desperate J1 holders anymore. Some CFI's will need to get a JAA instructors rating, I wonder how many will be able to work in JAA land?

The amount of money that is spent by the students is not even a drop in the ocean to the US economy so I don't believe that is very relevant. It certainly is not bad for the economy but I don't think the treasury is unduly concerned about running dry.

Oz and NZ may be in the running for JAA training but don't bank on South Africa, too much corruption in the CAA there is going to reduce the credibility of the licence obtained there, even though the training is of a high standard. It will also be very difficult to work there as work permits are definitely more difficult to obtain than a J1 visa has been.

I agree, Lt Fubar does write English very well. :ok:

I was just giving a tip to those who don't realize that using that word in English really sounds odd to native English speakers. Kinda like asking for a "hairs cut".... I meant no offense. :ouch:

HeliWest based at Jandakot airport next to/close to Perth, Australia were recently advertising for Chief FI for their plans with JAA rotary training. As from their website, it looks like they'd use WAAC for JAA ATPL theory/ground on a contract (since they do JAA planks ATPL) and HeliWest would do flying. It's been mentioned by me on another thread. Just search it. Dunno direct link... Sounds painless when they kickstart it and richer guys can afford integrated rotary in OZ..

Sorry guys, my previous post were quite a rant. I can be bit emotional. No sign of booze. I'm flying too often and don't drink much in general. Not a good habit to have. Might change my mind if I ever go planks bush flying though :-/
I'm like a beatnik writer sometimes. One might have to be on the same 'wavelength' or read it again.

Btw, somehow the same wording of 'statement of intent to bla blah' were used at the beginning of the idea to cut it to 18 months etc. the link I gave has links to some pdf docs with the official letter swapping. Didn't happen. Though it seems that even before they stopped approving more schools for J1 visas, they somehow denied Quantum Helicopters in AZ - their application for J1 issuing rights.
Let's leave it to AOPA, HAI, integrated JAA schools and Patrick Corr's charm and persuasive/lobbying skills.

The worst scenario for heli wannabes is to come on M1, do all the training up to CFI and then return on F1, paying some community college, ERAU or UVSC for Associate degree, have some credit hours waived due to certs/ratings and work part-time instructing in the school, as it's 'on-campus' technically. Still, very limiting and time consuming since the school has to hire the guy/gal and no 'externship' ie going to some small heli school that's just hiring with original school's J1 visa 'administered' still by it (complying to rules) There's also the OPT, temporary work visa in the discipline that can be authorised by the college/Uni to get experience in the field. Not sure it's worth 'wasting' at least 12k USD on AAS/AS degree just to have F1 plus other living costs and limited options.

RE: singular, plural and non-native speakers
There's too many exceptions to rules EN students don't know and natives have the feeling but can't explain it or give a definition.
Snob plurals, mutated plurals (umlaut), discretionary plurals, plurals in singular form, irregular plurals, words with two plural versions, French, Latin exceptions and English deviations to the original plurals (also due to using them 'in English grammar way') different context meanings, ay ay ay....

From my experience, there are far too many native speakers in the UK or US who can't spell correctly - websites, papers, everywhere. Even huge billboard ads with 5 words of which one screwed up..
Sorry guys, but that looks kinda redneckish to me -far more than someone using English as second or third language making trivial mistakes.

RE: 1000TT R22/S300 CFIing relevance, well even if not insurance reasons, it's still experience. and it's P1. Self-funding JAA ME IR(R) after rotary CPL is nice, but will get P2 time, so not best for jobhunting after NS without becoming captain first. That's what folks in the know write on PPRuNe. Also North Sea may not be the only option after CPL and instructing, though likely in Europe.

As for sponsorships and CPL 'cadet schemes', look at Bond in UK recently. Quite in demand even when part self-funded.
North Sea is virtually the only chance in the UK for fresh CPL or even experienced instructors without turbine time. It's almost Catch-22 we 'youngsters' can't beat without military background. C'est la vie.

its over martin its all finished so get used to it and please write no more

Well considering the balance of German, Austrian and Norwegian instructors working at KTTD teaching nothing but American students... well... guess it all works out in the end.

Of course they're not concerned anymore, they've already run dry. That's why they had to sell the country to China!!:}.

So what do you guys think the chances are that this dumb hillbilly decision made by a bunch of dumb hillbillies will get reversed at some point in the 4-8 years of the new guy's("the not yet President Obama" as Jon Stewart puts it) reign? He does seem to be showing some sort of knowledge of how the world works so far, well certainly more than the current bumbling idiot.