The end of the J-visa.
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The end of the J-visa.
Here
Work-study visas for flight students set to end
By AOPA ePublishing staff
The U.S. Department of State has issued a statement of policy announcing its intent to end a program that allows foreign flight students to work while they study in the United States.
The J-1 visa program, which is slated to end in June 2010, offers foreign students a two-year visa to go through flight training and work as flight instructors to build flying time. Other training options will still exist, such as the F-1 student and M-1 vocational student visa, although neither allows the student to work.
Currently, eight U.S. flight schools train as many as 700 students each year using the J-1 visa program. Those schools estimate that their revenue could be cut in half if the program is ended.
“While this only impacts a small number of students, we are deeply disappointed that the State Department believes that flight training programs no longer further the public diplomacy mission of the United States,” said Craig Spence, AOPA vice president of aviation security “This country has long been a world leader in flight training, and we want to see that continue.”
Many foreign students want to train in the United States where costs are lower and access to training is more broadly available than in Europe and elsewhere. AOPA will be working with other aviation groups and the Small Business Administration to preserve, and hopefully expand, this training option.
Work-study visas for flight students set to end
By AOPA ePublishing staff
The U.S. Department of State has issued a statement of policy announcing its intent to end a program that allows foreign flight students to work while they study in the United States.
The J-1 visa program, which is slated to end in June 2010, offers foreign students a two-year visa to go through flight training and work as flight instructors to build flying time. Other training options will still exist, such as the F-1 student and M-1 vocational student visa, although neither allows the student to work.
Currently, eight U.S. flight schools train as many as 700 students each year using the J-1 visa program. Those schools estimate that their revenue could be cut in half if the program is ended.
“While this only impacts a small number of students, we are deeply disappointed that the State Department believes that flight training programs no longer further the public diplomacy mission of the United States,” said Craig Spence, AOPA vice president of aviation security “This country has long been a world leader in flight training, and we want to see that continue.”
Many foreign students want to train in the United States where costs are lower and access to training is more broadly available than in Europe and elsewhere. AOPA will be working with other aviation groups and the Small Business Administration to preserve, and hopefully expand, this training option.
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Finn
Apart from US Nationals who gain CPL's not having 700 foreigners to compete with for "Flight Instructor" jobs - I can't fathom out Lucy either
The inverted commas around FI were intentional - someone else out there tell me that taking a student who gains their CPL just before lunch then becomes an Instructor before tea time is possibly not the best way to train people
The inverted commas around FI were intentional - someone else out there tell me that taking a student who gains their CPL just before lunch then becomes an Instructor before tea time is possibly not the best way to train people
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What a good idea, get rid of all those pesky foreigners and their pesky thousands of Euro/Pounds/whatever and the country will be a much better place. Especially now that China owns the US. Just another little thing that'll make the recession worse.
You'd think the US would have learned their about making dumbass decisions after electing Bush for a second term.
You'd think the US would have learned their about making dumbass decisions after electing Bush for a second term.
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Careful DP
Darren - you stand the risk of being labelled a - dare I say it "Liberal" - what a dreadful thing to be called in a Redneck world - goddamn - the guys a Liberal - lynch him!
Don't ever admit to having a brain - Senator John Mac will be called from the grave to expunge you from "The Land of the Free"
Don't ever admit to having a brain - Senator John Mac will be called from the grave to expunge you from "The Land of the Free"
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What we'll probably see in the future is a trend of a lot of people that would have come over here to do their training on the J1, will start looking more at South Africa, NZ & AUS. You'll probably also see a reduction in M1 visa's being used for flight training over time as those other locations become more & more popular with European's for training.
Fantastic news for Americans ! 
Good for Americans in the short term but definitely not the long term. Well i guess it's good news for the southern hemisphere!!
Fantastic news for Americans !
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Ah well i will have no choice now but to take J1 visas route next year . When it rains it always seems to pour . First the end of the J1 , credit crunch , house prices dropping maybe recession and this could not have happened at a better time 
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Well Leaky Lucy, please explain how it is good news for Americans, for the rest of us Humans
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I might have misunderstood you here. But i fail to see your point?
The J-1 visa has a pretty big restrictions on labour rights for non-citizens. Were talking deleting a labour possibility.
"us" european´s comes here spending a lot of money in US = good for US
Hurray no more europeans stealing cfi work, well sure but aren´t you bleeding off the market, so who is everybody going to teach when the flight school industri takes a dive?
But you´r right in that I do not have a saying in how americans should run their country neither do i claim to, im just glad for the opportunity i have over here.
My passion is flying, and my concern is the effect on that industry.
Sure it can move somewhere else as mentioned South Africa, NZ, Aus.
But it takes a long time to get it up and running before a another area can provide the possibilities for other people looking to start a career as pilots.
Well just my 5cent.
I might have misunderstood you here. But i fail to see your point?
The J-1 visa has a pretty big restrictions on labour rights for non-citizens. Were talking deleting a labour possibility.
"us" european´s comes here spending a lot of money in US = good for US
Hurray no more europeans stealing cfi work, well sure but aren´t you bleeding off the market, so who is everybody going to teach when the flight school industri takes a dive?
But you´r right in that I do not have a saying in how americans should run their country neither do i claim to, im just glad for the opportunity i have over here.
My passion is flying, and my concern is the effect on that industry.
Sure it can move somewhere else as mentioned South Africa, NZ, Aus.
But it takes a long time to get it up and running before a another area can provide the possibilities for other people looking to start a career as pilots.
Well just my 5cent.
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J1 Visa
This Just In! - Vertical Online Forums Effective December 2008, TC is planning to allow a person with a US commercial helicopter license (150 hours) to be able to come to Canada, show their US license and will be issued a Canadian commercial helicopter license.
NO flight test, NO exam!
On the flip side, a Canadian pilot cannot do the reciprocal in the US because they are 50 hours short.
Well not the end of the world for all you low timers down south, without the J1 visa wondering how to hr build , Still not gonna be easy as you still need work permit and the Canadians dont give em away, and some turbine time , but just maybe another option and the flight instructor option here not realistic for 150hr pilot as you need 400hrs for group 4 instructor rating ,but right place right time you never know, some companies here do hire low time to train them up, company I work for hires couple every year. Anyways seems to me low time friends from down south gonna get it all there own way. just my two cents worth , cheers.
NO flight test, NO exam!
On the flip side, a Canadian pilot cannot do the reciprocal in the US because they are 50 hours short.
Well not the end of the world for all you low timers down south, without the J1 visa wondering how to hr build , Still not gonna be easy as you still need work permit and the Canadians dont give em away, and some turbine time , but just maybe another option and the flight instructor option here not realistic for 150hr pilot as you need 400hrs for group 4 instructor rating ,but right place right time you never know, some companies here do hire low time to train them up, company I work for hires couple every year. Anyways seems to me low time friends from down south gonna get it all there own way. just my two cents worth , cheers.
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American isolationism at its finest 
Oh well, there's always Canada, New Zealand, Australia... lot's of places where we can spend our money. Anyone know good school with program like Hillsboro, and similar prices ?
Oh well, there's always Canada, New Zealand, Australia... lot's of places where we can spend our money. Anyone know good school with program like Hillsboro, and similar prices ?
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Very few Americans are going to be able to come up with the training funds now that easy credit is coming to an end. Without foreign student mulah, the larger US schools are going to either collapse or will have to change their business model.
Maybe we'll start seeing GOM companies start to contribute towards student training with some kind of employment contract, like the airlines used to do many years ago?
The other alternative has always existed, of course: find yourself a nice, chubby American girl and marry her.
Maybe we'll start seeing GOM companies start to contribute towards student training with some kind of employment contract, like the airlines used to do many years ago?
The other alternative has always existed, of course: find yourself a nice, chubby American girl and marry her.
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Maybe we'll start seeing GOM companies start to contribute towards student training
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well Bristow will not care to much. They only wanted titsusville ' just in case ' that Bush was opening up Atlantic drilling........... he did what now ??? They suddenley have a east coast base ??
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US policy documents http://exchanges.state.gov/education...terim_0607.pdf
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-15783.pdf
The Dept. of State found that there are eight flight instruction schools and approximately 350 students in J-1 status studying among them. All flight training programs no longer are viewed to further the public diplomacy mission of the Dept. Dept. of Homeland Security has been better charged with this responsibility according to Dept. of State and flight instruction students will continue to qualify under the M-1 status through DHS.
The J1 visa is an exchange program visa where students, not just pilots, go to the US, learn a profession or trade and then return to their own countries to teach their citizens the same skills. Staying in the US to do flight instruction falls vaguely under this definition but how many of these J1 instructors ever go back to do instruction in their own countries? That is an honest question. Working as a CFI has been tolerated thus far, it is the "overstays" that have brought this issue to the point where the J1 will not be available to pilots anymore. Once again, the ungrateful minority has ruined a good thing for the law-abiding majority!
As mentioned in the 2006 thread, reciprocity is supposed to work both ways. M1 visas will still enable students to go to the US to do all the training up to CPL level, since it is so much cheaper than Europe it is still a bargain. Americans cant work in Europe without going through a lot more hassle than the J1. Everyone seems to hate the US until they want a green card, I saw whines about the DV or green card lottery not being available to UK citizens, so what. The UK is a first world country where everything is available, at a price. The green card lottery is an immigration opportunity designed for countries where people don't have all the opportunities, not just a way to selfishly get work for a few years before going home. I am unaware of any other countries even having such a lottery, correct me if I am wrong.
If the system in the UK, or the rest of Europe, makes it too expensive or difficult to fly there, put pressure on the various CAA's to change instead of blaming the State Department. Since the airlines and manufacturers live off EU and government subsidies, why does the JAA/CAA not reduce costs to pilots by being subsidised too? I don't have the answers but blaming the US for what is actually a local problem does not make sense. Those who do go back to Europe generally earn much higher salaries than their American equals, even allowing for the higher cost of living. That does not seem entirely fair. I had the opposite experience to most, lived in Spain with an FAA ATP and the Spanish CAA was completely uncooperative. They insisted I had an EU passport to fly as PIC, even though I was a resident of Spain and had the legal right to work there. Is that reciprocity? However, I could fly there as PIC in a foreign registered aircraft, carrying Spanish citizens, sharing the same airspace as their own pilots and all that without a JAA licence or EU passport. I subsequently did the JAA / UKCAA licence but I do not see why there cannot be a standardised licence valid anywhere in the world, physics remain the same all over. Subject for another thread.
I don't have a dog in this fight and it does not affect me in the slightest, I just dislike hypocrisy.
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-15783.pdf
The Dept. of State found that there are eight flight instruction schools and approximately 350 students in J-1 status studying among them. All flight training programs no longer are viewed to further the public diplomacy mission of the Dept. Dept. of Homeland Security has been better charged with this responsibility according to Dept. of State and flight instruction students will continue to qualify under the M-1 status through DHS.
The J1 visa is an exchange program visa where students, not just pilots, go to the US, learn a profession or trade and then return to their own countries to teach their citizens the same skills. Staying in the US to do flight instruction falls vaguely under this definition but how many of these J1 instructors ever go back to do instruction in their own countries? That is an honest question. Working as a CFI has been tolerated thus far, it is the "overstays" that have brought this issue to the point where the J1 will not be available to pilots anymore. Once again, the ungrateful minority has ruined a good thing for the law-abiding majority!
As mentioned in the 2006 thread, reciprocity is supposed to work both ways. M1 visas will still enable students to go to the US to do all the training up to CPL level, since it is so much cheaper than Europe it is still a bargain. Americans cant work in Europe without going through a lot more hassle than the J1. Everyone seems to hate the US until they want a green card, I saw whines about the DV or green card lottery not being available to UK citizens, so what. The UK is a first world country where everything is available, at a price. The green card lottery is an immigration opportunity designed for countries where people don't have all the opportunities, not just a way to selfishly get work for a few years before going home. I am unaware of any other countries even having such a lottery, correct me if I am wrong.
If the system in the UK, or the rest of Europe, makes it too expensive or difficult to fly there, put pressure on the various CAA's to change instead of blaming the State Department. Since the airlines and manufacturers live off EU and government subsidies, why does the JAA/CAA not reduce costs to pilots by being subsidised too? I don't have the answers but blaming the US for what is actually a local problem does not make sense. Those who do go back to Europe generally earn much higher salaries than their American equals, even allowing for the higher cost of living. That does not seem entirely fair. I had the opposite experience to most, lived in Spain with an FAA ATP and the Spanish CAA was completely uncooperative. They insisted I had an EU passport to fly as PIC, even though I was a resident of Spain and had the legal right to work there. Is that reciprocity? However, I could fly there as PIC in a foreign registered aircraft, carrying Spanish citizens, sharing the same airspace as their own pilots and all that without a JAA licence or EU passport.
I subsequently did the JAA / UKCAA licence but I do not see why there cannot be a standardised licence valid anywhere in the world, physics remain the same all over. Subject for another thread.I don't have a dog in this fight and it does not affect me in the slightest, I just dislike hypocrisy.
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1) Certain schools will suffer.
2) Not everyone coming to the US on J1 gets instructing job.
3) Some of those who come, are students for US citizens as well
4) FW schools definitely take advantage of cheap, hardworking and knowledgeable instructors
5) 'premium' JAA schools will definitely suffer short term, but then, hey, we have H1 visa if s
hits the fan. Not flexible though
6) Yeah, I can understand sentiment of RW US citizen students, but if they go after their career, they'd be just fine. Unlike those Europeans who blew all the could possibly scratch on RW CFI and don't have any chance of getting 'real job' without hours.
7) those skint FAA CFI guys (and gals) coming back to Europe with no more money left and still 50-100 hours to get only to start expensive FI training (thank God for Bristow's JAA FI, well, who knows for how long if EASA rules get mad - see end of JAA instructing outside Europe threads)
8) I'm finishing my PPL (H) and leave it to show off to girls in bar and keep on flying planks if all this thunderstorm hits..
Especially as some of us still need lots of savings/strike of fortune to fundraise for CPL/CFI training.
I hope this 'statement of policy' doesn't go through and loses enough steam if certain influential lobbying is exercised on behalf of the aviation training industry. God bless (this status quo). Whoa.
I sincerely hope these words are no more than the rumours or suggestions of finishing J1 for aviation students.
WHAT ABOUT ALL THE MEDICAL J1 STUDENTS/TRAINEES? And other professions and training? Why just us? I need J1 to go on.
BTW, some schools have steady supply of Chinese, Taiwanese and Indian sponsored ab-initio cadets (FW wise) so they'd be just fine with M1s.
As for F1, it's fine, but will drive already superexpensive training even higher, shelling out extra 8-12k USD a year for 'degree' one doesn't really need for flying in Europe or for getting the funding (we're not Americans).
Yeah. Those of you who feel against slave/cheap labour for flight instructing:
Get a grip. Who do you think wants/needs more money out of instructing (unless very busy most of time)?
American who has to support himself, pay off loan or provide for own young family
OR
European guy who came here and spend shedloads of dosh, flowing INTO US economy, paid for all himself/from home and only wants to get some time flown for whatever meagre hourly wage/salary he/she can get? Even the ones who don't need to cover living costs as they have money for living after training?
So the cost of paying decent salary/wages to instructors will be then projected into cost of training for wannabes.
Also, J1 students with over year of work visa left, will go to work for school far from 'civilisation' or to not so great place, somewhere 'locals' don't go or want to/arent any around...
I, for once, would love to go and spend my money in NZ or OZ school if it was financially viable. I even started my aviation career plans with heli schools in Australia. Thanks to AUD getting stronger and the prices 'down under' as they are, not easy for rotary flying. We can work part time while studying, outside schools, but then, paying for courses we don't need, international fees just to stay and get flying experience?
Plus around 400 TT for instructing there, btw. Quite a blow. Check out details yourself.
I'm off to check out the seriousness of the release.
Not sure I'll fundraise enough until June 2010. Otherwise they'd be finishing them anytime soon so no more J1 persons on US soil by then..
Happy flying (hate flare part of autos in Robbie... still need it better)
2) Not everyone coming to the US on J1 gets instructing job.
3) Some of those who come, are students for US citizens as well
4) FW schools definitely take advantage of cheap, hardworking and knowledgeable instructors
5) 'premium' JAA schools will definitely suffer short term, but then, hey, we have H1 visa if s
hits the fan. Not flexible though6) Yeah, I can understand sentiment of RW US citizen students, but if they go after their career, they'd be just fine. Unlike those Europeans who blew all the could possibly scratch on RW CFI and don't have any chance of getting 'real job' without hours.
7) those skint FAA CFI guys (and gals) coming back to Europe with no more money left and still 50-100 hours to get only to start expensive FI training (thank God for Bristow's JAA FI, well, who knows for how long if EASA rules get mad - see end of JAA instructing outside Europe threads)
8) I'm finishing my PPL (H) and leave it to show off to girls in bar and keep on flying planks if all this thunderstorm hits..
Especially as some of us still need lots of savings/strike of fortune to fundraise for CPL/CFI training.
I hope this 'statement of policy' doesn't go through and loses enough steam if certain influential lobbying is exercised on behalf of the aviation training industry. God bless (this status quo). Whoa.
I sincerely hope these words are no more than the rumours or suggestions of finishing J1 for aviation students.
WHAT ABOUT ALL THE MEDICAL J1 STUDENTS/TRAINEES? And other professions and training? Why just us? I need J1 to go on.
BTW, some schools have steady supply of Chinese, Taiwanese and Indian sponsored ab-initio cadets (FW wise) so they'd be just fine with M1s.
As for F1, it's fine, but will drive already superexpensive training even higher, shelling out extra 8-12k USD a year for 'degree' one doesn't really need for flying in Europe or for getting the funding (we're not Americans).
Yeah. Those of you who feel against slave/cheap labour for flight instructing:
Get a grip. Who do you think wants/needs more money out of instructing (unless very busy most of time)?
American who has to support himself, pay off loan or provide for own young family
OR
European guy who came here and spend shedloads of dosh, flowing INTO US economy, paid for all himself/from home and only wants to get some time flown for whatever meagre hourly wage/salary he/she can get? Even the ones who don't need to cover living costs as they have money for living after training?
So the cost of paying decent salary/wages to instructors will be then projected into cost of training for wannabes.
Also, J1 students with over year of work visa left, will go to work for school far from 'civilisation' or to not so great place, somewhere 'locals' don't go or want to/arent any around...
I, for once, would love to go and spend my money in NZ or OZ school if it was financially viable. I even started my aviation career plans with heli schools in Australia. Thanks to AUD getting stronger and the prices 'down under' as they are, not easy for rotary flying. We can work part time while studying, outside schools, but then, paying for courses we don't need, international fees just to stay and get flying experience?
Plus around 400 TT for instructing there, btw. Quite a blow. Check out details yourself.
I'm off to check out the seriousness of the release.
Not sure I'll fundraise enough until June 2010. Otherwise they'd be finishing them anytime soon so no more J1 persons on US soil by then..
Happy flying (hate flare part of autos in Robbie... still need it better)
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Always wondered, where DO you guys get all that cash for US training? Seems like every one of you shows up with a mountain of it. Did most of you earn it, or are your parents just very generous?
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I earnt all mine, $65k for training and living, all gone. I'm $20k in debt now but I'm working as a pilot which was my goal and I'm just starting to pay it off.
I was expecting most of the people who went to Bristow's Academy to be spoilt rich kids but I was surprised to see that they were less than 1 in 5, maybe even 1 in 10, most people there were living out their life's ambition.
I was expecting most of the people who went to Bristow's Academy to be spoilt rich kids but I was surprised to see that they were less than 1 in 5, maybe even 1 in 10, most people there were living out their life's ambition.
