Enstrom vs Eurocopter
 

Simple. The French machine is much better-looking!

Benet :cool:

American products have got behind the times and when the catching up is achieved the products will be acceptable.
Just take the Bell 430 as an example. Lovely looking ship with good cockpit and cabin. Systems are old technology. Good engines and rotor head. Tail rotor is vunerable to damage as it sits close to the ground. The ship is heavy and has small fuel tanks. Therefore is suffers from poor payload. It's noisy. Then compare it to the EC155. Modern technology. The commonality of the VEMD, great idea.

I'm rated on both enstroms (tho not current) and regularly fly EC120 and I'll take the latter anyday of the week. Head turner got it right with his comments about 'old technology'.
The visibily is so much better in 120 and the law enforcement agency wanted right seat PIC capability, the 120 can be flown PIC from either seat.

Dave jackson
I beleive the airframe of the 120 is made in the far east as eurocopter want to explore that market.

For a long the American air industries have had a huge share in the market so some healthy competition might make them improve their products.
The EC120 is the next generation of 206's but sadly Bell have sat on 30 year old technology for too long.

I don't know about the Enstrom, but the comments regarding French vs American machines are very true. I regularly fly Sikorsky, Bell and Eurocopter helicopters and there's nothing to beat the Eurocopter products for flying enjoyment, much lower maintenance costs and reliability. I spent the first 21 years of my flying career flying Sikorsky or Bell and it was a revelation changing to Eurocopter helicopters. The American manufacturers rely too much on the loyalty of North American customers to American products, despite the fact that so many of them are old, old designs and technology.

I think Nick has made the point very well, because the S92 is about the only new American machine available out there, but the market for helicopters that big is pretty limited.

Yarba,
I have to (gasp!) agree on general principles that the French have shown good ingenuity and freshness in their designs. I see it in their cars, as well. Mostly due to good recent investment, and good sense of innovation, I think.

Buying an Enstrom
 

Ref the above ..... first can I declare an interest.

Working from Shoreham Airport in the 70's and early 80's for that super entrepreneur, Roy Spooner, the company held the European distribution rights for the Enstrom product. I was their salesman !!

During that time, I sold 138 of the model F28.s and 280 Sharks and thelater 'dash two' series. It was then the success story of its time, before the Robinson came along and swamped it, mainly for training.

The type is a very fine machine but with some difficult areas of maintenance. Many engineers don't like the type, some won't even maintain them hence the 'Hangar Queens' around the country. But as other engineers will tell you (they know who they are and I'll name names if I'm asked !!) .... when the type is properly maintained and flown fairly regularly, it is without equal in its market.

Fast at around 100mph (VNE 117 mph) AND 11-12 gals per hour, big roomy 5 foot wide cabin, (three comfortable seats abreast) 7 cu ft, 60lb capacity luggage locker, (100lbs in the later versions) super looks (it won Fortune magazines best designed industrial product in the 70's) ...... and the later 'Greg Focella' nose on the 280 Shark made it the best looking helicopter you could buy. IMHO !! .... then terrific handling with nicely co-ordinated controls and as my old publicity blurb always said ..... the type can be trimmed to fly 'hands and feet off.' which I still demonstrate. It is fuel injected of course so no carb ice, engine failure possibilities. 40 usg fuel gives around 250 sm range. The turbo version should be leaned to give 83lb per hour fuel flow and 100mph.

Safety ? There has never been a fatality in the UK in over thirty years of operations. The type 'autorotates' almost as well as the 206. And can be safely autorotated to a full stop ground landing in training as will be demonstrated by many instructors who know the type. And it is 'aerobatic' and has twice won the the world 'freestyle' championships. You can buy an F28A model for around £40k - £45k.

In fact one could be forgiven for wondering why anyone bought anything else !!!

But now the downside! (M/R blades later !!)

1. Difficult to track except by the whizz kids above.
2. Poor payload. Usually quoted as 'underpowered' - when in fact the problem is 'overweight' Most machines have a WPS around 1650lbs. (gross on 28A 2150lbs - but can be utility certified to 2600 !!!)
3. Only 205 bhp on a standard day which at a typical weight on a 30 degree humid day needs a pilot who is really well rrpm aware. (overcome to a large extent on the later 'turbo' models) ...... but we are talking 28A models here.
4. Indifferent factory ownership from time to time, mainly masked by an enthusiastic UK distributor.
5. Engine 'overspeeds' common, hence the Lycoming C1A engine often failing to see its published 1500 hours.
6. Occasional 'chronic' starter motor failings AND starting problems with the 'shower of sparks' starting system.

There are a few more downsides but I won't list them .... but now the M/R blades.

In my view this was the cause of so many lost sales when I was actively involved. And as Steve A points out (600 Driver) (Wish you well Steve) .... he has covered the factory MM points nicely. But as a simple pilot on an initial, non engineer inspection. Yes do the 'tap' test. A tap every inch along the leading edges top and bottom listening for any 'voiding.' This will take you an hour for three blades. The SIL allowable limit is 3 inches but even if its one you are heading for replacement. Both main and tail blades here. Trainling edges for bond separation too. You can see it easily with a m-glass. The root doublers Steve has mentioned, (no voiding sound here) and if you want to know what that sounds like just tap anywhere inboard of the blade span. Its hollow!

The blades are a leading edge 'extrusion' made by 'Alcoa' alluminium and epoxy resin glue bonded at the Menominee factory. Low use, damp weather ie humidity and temp changes cause them to suffer from 'exfoliation - inter granular corrosion' This is an absolute visual thing and is often masked by the leading edge tape protection. No excessive corrosion here although it can be trimmed/filed down to MM declared limits.

So to get back to the original concept, yes take a good long look at the marque, do some initial checks as above and if you are happy and still interested GET A FULL SURVEY DONE by a type knowledgable LAE before parting with cash. Then get into bed with the same or similar engineer and let him look after it exclusively ... warts and all as they say.

There's tons more of course, but I've probably bored too many of you. But my enthusiasm for the Enstrom marque remains. Great ship and rewarding to own. Then when the pocket allows, graduate from the 28a/280 to the Turbo C and F models.

Regards to all ppruners and guests out there.

Dennis K

Enstrom on Ebay (UK)
 

Someone in Newport has one for sale here

No bids at the time of posting...

Benet

Hi Dennis, came across your Shoreham video for the first time recently. Awesome stuff! :ok:

enstrom 480
 

anyone flying the enstrom 480 turbine.
power
speed
auto,s
running costs
resale value
agent in the uk.

any info would be helpful.

cs.

Enstrom 480B vs R44
 

what are the pro's and cons in owning either of these models. I am in the midst of purchasing a 480b and I am still being told the 44 is a better option - what is the forums view on this.

what is the cost per hour on each and what about maintenance??

ADS - thanks.

send me a pm with contact details ive had 2 480s

Buy a 500 D or E more fun cheaper to run and will outperform almost every other helicopter in the sky

The only non Bell product we operate is a 480B, and here are a few experiences we've had with the thing just recently,

- The thing had a defective starter from the factory which vibrated so bad it broke the starter mount and the FCU mount, fortunately the FCU didn't fall off in flight, Enstrom knows and has decided to ignore the problem.

- Just recenty the bearing inside the pulley overheated, damaging the bearing and the pulley, technicians all agree that its due to a bad design of the pulley.

- The thing just vibrates like crazy the cyclic wobbles all over the place and when this happens its difficult to work on it.

- It is very difficult to find training for this aircraft, Enstrom sent an IP to give recurrent training to us and he chopped one of the fins off, and Enstrom didn't even send an apology note, just like nothing happened.

I have never seen a helicopter require so much maintenance, I really wish the owners would just get rid of it.

Hughes 500
 

Got to agree with H500.. Depends what you want it for of course. Taking you mother in law to lunch at the local hotel you might be better off with something more comfortable, but for fun in the sky a D or an E rocks!

They are damn fast as well, puts a JR or 480 to shame

I've seem a couple that are up for referb in Helidata so you might pick up a nice one.

Blenderpilot, h500
 

Blenderpilot, I cannot DISAGREE with you more!!!! I have flown EVERY, YES EVERY 480/480B in the UK. I have taught just about every owner, past and present, including the 480B CAA certification flight test on behalf of the CAA. The 480/480B is without ANY doubt , the smoothest, most forgiving , will not bite you back helicopter in the world!!!!!! . With regard to operating costs, yes the H500 can be reasonable, but the 480 range is cheaper!! take fuel consumption for example, most 500's use 26/28 galls per hour, especially if fitted withC20 R2 engine. The 480's rarely use more than 21/22 gallons per hour. Now just compare that to a modern R44 using 18 gallons of avgas per hour at £1 litre, I reckon the 480 is at least 50% cheaper!!!!!!!!!. Yes 500's may go a bit faster and climb a bit faster, but try flying them in the vicinity of a few hills in 25kt winds and see how comfortable the ride is!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 480 quality of ride is by far superior to the 500, R44 and Jet Ranger. Take a look in the 480 flight manual "This aircraft has been proven to be fully controlable in winds of 40 MPH"!!!!! Take a look in the B206 flight manual "This aircraft has been proven to be fully controlable in winds of 20 MPH"!!!!! -- EXACTLY HALF!!!!!!!!!!!! Close the throtle on a H500 or R44, how long before you die? Come with me in a ENSTROM 280 and I will shut the throttle for 15 seconds before I have to lower the collective! Any R22 or R44 pilot want to compete with me??? What about low G situations? mast bumping etc? I could go on. Speak to ENSTROM owners they all love them,. Blenderpilot, I dont believe you operated your 480 in the UK? I suggest you change your maintenance company asap and get yourself some good instuctors. Just before you say it, thats just my points of view, I am not connected to ENSTROM or any other sales agency, I JUST FLY THEM!!!

TOT:

I know you're enthusiastic, but I think your "!" key is stuck.

totally agree with you TOT

pound for pound the 480 beats the r44 hands down

i should know ive had 2 480s and 5 pistons

steve

I cannot claim a lack of interest in this subject as I am the Director of Sales for Enstrom Helicopter Corporation. I am intimately aware of the issues that have contributed to some of the "maintenance" issues with the aircraft and do not want to address those on a forum of this nature.

This aircraft has a long, reputable, history of operation in Mexico and it is interesting to note that, while the company that owns this 480B has researched the possibility of selling the aircraft, they have made it very clear that they do not want to sell this aircraft in Mexico. The reason? Because the operating costs are too low - and whoever purchased the aircraft could very easily out bid the current owner for leased time on the aircraft. The 480B simply is less expensive to operate than the Bell products that make up the rest of their fleet.

This aircraft is managed, maintained and operated by a Bell helicopter CSF and Enstrom has long maintained that there might be conflicts of interest regarding our product and the priority that is put on it when it comes to maintainence issues.

TOT

Seeing that 90% of 500's have a C20B engine in the fuel consumption will be the same ! I would challenge you on the comfort in 25 kts of wind, flight is very good and comfortable. I would also look at the risdual prices - they don't hold their money very well do they ! Hm wonder why ?
It is a shame Enstrom did not make the helicopter more attractive, lets face it it is a big 280 with excess scaffolding poles used as an undercarriage !

The 500 is a bucket load quicker than a 480, havent recently seen a 480 go at 130 kts straight and level with power to spare, unless it was going down hill !!!!!!!!!!!

Biting yet tot ?

H500,
I don't know much about Enstroms or Hughes', but I do know that saying they ought to have the same fuel consumption because they have the same engine is a little wide of the mark!

"Come with me in a ENSTROM 280 and I will shut the throttle for 15 seconds before I have to lower the collective!"

Wowsers! How does this work? There has got to be some kind of flywheel in the drivetrain...

Mart

212 man

Both machines use the Allison C20 series, they do use the same amount of fuel, just the same as the 206 at max continuous uses the same amount of fuel as a 500 at max continuous, which is around 200 lbs of fuel / hr ( approx 25 gals). If you look at the Allison specs you will find the fuel flow charts at the various power settings. I agree that if each helicopter type does not use the same amount of power from the engine then obviously the fuel flow will be different eg Schweizer 333, but 206 500 and 480 use the same amount of power. The C20R series engine uses about 5 gals more than a C20B it is used in 500's as the hot and high varient as it pulls less tot for a given Tq setting.

hughes 500

the 480 has a c20w engine not a c20r if that makes any difference

having flown the 500 and the 480 my opinion is that the 480 uses less fuel

R's B's and J's have the turbine exhaust stack facing up. W's have the turbine exhaust stack facing down. Same basic engine. You can not simply turn an R, B or J upside down as the gearbox would not work.

MD600driver

Most 500's have a C20B rather than the useless gas guzzling C20R. I will obviously stand corrected but believe the 480 uses about 180 to 200 lbs of fuel an hour at max cont

R22 v Enstrom??
 

Any of you auzzie mustering pilots out there have a comparison between the R22 and the F series enstrom for mustering operations??.
looking mainly at cost and effiancy, TBO's, manouverability, maintanance problems, Ect.
cheers, Wiz.

Never seen an enstom mustering...so that will tell you something.

try R-22 V H-300, now your talking

Short term cost a R-22, Long term cost go the H-300

R22 is faster ( so you get back to the pug quicker)
H-300 is fair more manuavable.( yes I know I cant spell)

Check out the post on Mike Keyden, with him flying a 300. and that will give you an idea of about 40% of what a 300 can and will do..
Ask any old mustering pilot that flew 300's back in the 80's... They a fantastic machine

ENSTROM
 

They have got to be the ugliest machine out there ,I see one in Adelaide when im passing through i think it is on static display at Parafield airport by the roadside.

Wiz,

Depending on the model, I suspect you'll find the Enstrom a bit expensive. The A models are cheap to buy and pretty good to run. They're also a bit short on power, but you'll have a hard time breaking them - they're overbuilt, really.

The first time I looked at the tail rotor I saw a couple of straws, but I suppose the chill that runs down the spine brings care and respect. Might be your limiting factor in the heat.


Not sure about the C, did they have the turbo?


The F has the turbo and has been developed into quite a nice thing, but the DOC's are closer to the R44 than the R22.

Lots of inertia, a very solid feel, heavier controls but doesn't take long to get used to it. Autos way, way better than anything else & I've never heard of ground resonance.

The blades are on condition, therefore they don't fall off!

I've never heard of one mustering either, but there's quite a history of them spraying so they can't be that bad, the modern mustering techniques might suit them much better than the old.




Reefdog,

Do you mean Dennis Kenyon? If so, his Enstrom routine is near enough to identical to his 300 routine. Extremely impressive, and I'm not aware of him doing anything similar in a Robbie.

Couldn't believe he did it in the turbine enstrom as well, I wonder if he'll do it in the 333?

Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering about the enstrom because they seem to be cheaper to buy than the robbo and have longer time on a lot of the components.
the one little glitch that seem fairly obviouse, is the lack of maintanance facilitys that work on them.
I was guessing it was a nasty little circle that might have kept them from the mustering game. not many about = not to many LAME's required = not to many bought and used due to the dificulty having it serviced and worked on.
not much slower than the Robbo (Ok, a few knots) and uses a bit more fuel, but hey, the 47s use a lot more fuel and delivers a lot less.
Havn't heard of to many pranging in the bush either........... but that could be directly proportional to the number of them out there.
Any one have any figures on them? costs, weights, speeds, Tbo on parts, Ect.

For the turbo models:
1. Bitch to re-start when hot
2. Three minute cooldown
3. Needs the turbo just to fly - 29" was the minimum power required in the cruise, so lose the turbo and down you go.
4. Horrible things
5. See 4.
6. Ditto.
7. Engine dipstick seemed like 6 feet long with three twists and turns to get to the oil, easy to bend it when in a rush
8. Horrible things....:yuk:

The Enstrom website has a data sheet that gives weights & performance. There's been an Enstrom executive appear on these forums on a 480 thread somewhere who should be able to give you the overhaul times.

Sticking with the F model, I believe the transmissions are an exchange item(?) but the engine & the inspections should be able to be done in your average workshop. I understand there's some issue about the turbo having a different approval. Probably not much of an issue, even if true. Check this with your workshop.

The current model's DOC equates to about Aus $200 an hour. This puts it under the R44, but there are a few people starting to muster with R44's to give themselves more margin. I suppose if I really had to, I'd rather have an Enstrom's inertia and boot than either robbo's kiddy seats, which probably have the esky under them anyway.

On the other hand, the blades droop quite a bit at rest so you get to relax a bit while everything stops - there's no brake. While a bit better than the robbos, the turbo will be VERY hot not far off the ground, still well within spinifex reach. Look after your turbo, you won't go far without it. Some people have a sworn hatred of the clutch arrangement. There's a whole series of things in slightly strange places that some people hate and others just accept.

If I were taking the cocky or training a new kid for the block, no contest. You won't have problems carrying the weight, the fat ones won't squeeze you onto the skid, there's enough power for any DA you're likely to encounter and most importantly you won't ever have to buy the first round at the end of the day!

You don't have to buy a whole helicopter just to get floats either.



And anyway badbreath, isn't beauty in the eye of the beerholder after all?

enstroms
 

A friend of mine told me that nobody has ever been fatally injured in an Enstrom

Is there any truth to this comment or is it just an urban myth

Any feedback would be much appreciated

The NTSB Database has 35 recorded fatal incidents in Enstroms since 1970.

I think its correct to say an Enstrom has never had a fatal accident in the UK.

V.

Enstrom buying....

I just completed the Enstrom maintenance class at the factory with the idea of buying an older model. Here are my thoughts:
The Enstrom is marketed as a a kind of flashy sportscar would be marketed, to be bought by someone that doesnt need to ask about cost much. I heard about $2000 for this and $14000 for that and so on and so on.... I lost interest.
The costs may be comparable with other helos... I just cannot afford any helicopter is the real truth.
Enstrom is overbuilt, heavy and has about half the fatal crashes of the R22 based on by own crude look at NTSB reports. The blades dont fall off. But the blades might disbond after 30 years and you need a new set ($30,000) And you need a $15 or $20k chadwick to keep it tracked. Hence my loss of interest. But if I had a real need for a helo I would buy an Enstrom I think.

Enstrom 480
 

Does anyone have any experience with this machine that they would care to speak of? Just wondering about the +'s and -'s of the aircraft.

Thanks!

Tompkins

Never flown the type myself, but there were a couple of comments on the 480 in the Enstrom Corner thread.

I/C

Enstroms
 

Are there any Enstroms in the UK with pop out float kits fitted? (possibly a turbine rather than a piston engine)??

In curiosity

h-r;)

yes there is at least 2 with floats on N485A and GOSKP at least they had them on when i had them [i belive N485A in in progress of changing to the g reg g meek i think ] both 480 turbines dont know any pistons

regards steve

pop out floats?
 

Does anyone know if is possible to fit pop outs to a 280c? as far as I can see its fixed only. how much speed do the fixed floats knock off?
Price of a mrgb overhaul ?
anything I should look out for ? sorry all the questions but in the process of buying one and any info would be gratefully received
also anyone have the poh in pdf (so I can swot up before it arrives)
Thanks
fd