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GB, I wanted to add the following two points.
First, Enstrom released a newly redesigned main rotor drive shaft that has a thicker wall, which cured the previous track and balance problems. I understand that new machines come with this shaft, and it can be fitted on older machines. Maybe you can find a ship that has this new rotor shaft installed. Second, maintenance on an Enstrom can be a little tricky, as some of the procedures (drive alignment procedures in particular) are very precise. If you're thinking of buying one, be sure a good maintenance shop is located nearby, staffed with folks who know what they're doing with Enstroms. |
I've got a 1975 F28A which I have had a couple of years. I love it.
What kills Enstroms is water. ALL the bearings in mine were shot due to water ingress and corrosion. Lamiflexes in the UK are 5 year items (unless this has changed recently) and are expensive. $1000 ish each. Tracking is not a problem provided the rotor head is in good condition and the blades are reasonably matched. most older aircraft seem to have a random assortment of blades so if it won't track a blade swap may be the answer. Used blades are cheap and available and unlifed. Dampers can be a problem but mine were fixed and are now perfect. After a thorough refurbishment it is pretty reliable with no significant faults this year and only a failed starter last year. It is slow with cruise at 80 mph (not knots) and certainly not overpowered but provided kept under max weight is not a problem at low level in UK summer. I installed a graphic engine monitor and balanced fuel injectors so it will run according to John Deakins principles - well lean of peak - and at that burns around 8 imperial galls per hour and is cool and clean. Not that I do of course as the POH says mixture full rich at all times.;) . Hot starts are not too bad althought the POH method is not the best in my experience. It can be trimmed to fly hands off and can be steered by simply leaning in the seat. I do not find the controls in the least heavy. Anyone buying an old one should be prepared to spend a lot of time and money to make it right. When that is done it will be a cheap,safe helicopter. |
to MD 600 driver,
Lots over here??? there are only three schools to my knowledge in the UK that train on them and there aren't that many about, last I heard there were only about 23 in the country. 480 was nice to fly but the rest were uncomfortable and hard work on the old biceps. |
Hey Billy Whizz,
Up here in Lanky we have Barton Helis they use em, and sell em, if it was nearer to me that EGNH I would have started on Enstroms not R22's, been in a couple of Enstroms and find them far more stable and slightly quieter than the R22 and just as flyable, although never out in any bad wx with one, quiet a few people who own them are in the locality and seem to enjoy them Peter R-B Vfr |
Billy,
There are 76 on the UK register in varying states of airworthiness. There seems to be a bit of a revival going on at the moment . I know of a couple of dead ones being restored. People are realising that they are actually quite good when restored. Most of the UK fleet is ancient and they got a bad name as a lot were left out and neglected which is a recipe for trouble and expense. (If you go to Barton there are usually 6 or more standing in the rain - and it will be raining) If you have any doubts about what they will do, just watch Dennis Kenyon in a 21 year old F28. Peter, In bad WX they are much, much more stable than an R22. Give me a good Enstrom F28 rather than a R22 anyday. |
Check the blades carefully - you may find one which has not been back to an approved shop for repair after delamination. I hope it's been destroyed by now . . .
|
Nr Fairy,
There are lots of repared blades out there, and field repairs under 3 inches long are allowed according to my engineer. I don't have any repairs on my blades now although when I got the helicopter it had just passed a C of A with a large, very obvious trailing edge repair.:uhoh: That blade has now been scrapped. I have experienced a large delamination in flight. It caused moderate vibration but only when the lever was lowered. Blades are lifed 'on condition'. |
I had an F28A followed by an F280C. Both machines were great to fly although the uncorrolated throttle made an overspeed easy. The big problem with the Enstrom was the maintenence costs. I was told that I could run an H500 for what my Enstrom was costing me.
I then bought an H500C and after 15 years they were right, the costs were about the same and obviously there was no comparison on the performance of the 2 machines. The Enstrom is a safe crashworthy machine that has no time life limitations, but I think engineering and perfomance wise the R22 and R44 are supierior. |
you must have had a very poor enstrom and a exeptional 500
but if it worked out for you thats great regards steve do i know you |
It needs 29" MAP just to hold level flight, so if the turbocharger quits you are out of the sky, even with the rest of the engine working. I normally use 28" to 29" MAP in forward flight for a cruise power setting which yeilds about 95 MPH, that's only about 1" to 2" of boost above ambient. In the traffic pattern or for slower flight, I set about 23'"to 25" MAP which yeilds about 70 to 80 MPH. No turbocharger required at these power settings, it's operating just as a normally aspirated engine does without any turbo-boost at all. For a desent or approach I set about 18" MAP which yeilds about 70 MPH with a descent rate of 500 fpm. Bottom line: if the turbo quits, the ship "WILL NOT fall out of the sky! But transitioning back into a hover prior to landing will have to be accomplished quickly or a run-on landing at low airspeed will also work fine. I frequently practice this non-normal procedure just in case and it is no big deal at all. it was a mongrel to start when it was hot I didn't like the F28C, but the 280FX is a pretty nice ship to fly. Furthermore, the transmission was made from an old Chevy (I think) and the design hasn't changed much. Most of the other problems (i.e. lamiflex bearings, tracking, etc.) have been resolved over the years. I have not experienced any of the issues or problems that some of the others have posted here. I am not affiliated with Enstrom in any capacity, other than as an owner-operator, and as a factory trained/certified mechanic. I have owned my F28 for almost 5 years, have flown several hundred hours in it, it has been provided me with safe and reliable operation. The maintainence is similar to a Schweizer which is not as good as the Robinsons. But I think the Enstrom is better in most of the other areas of flying, especially safety. If you check the NTSB accident and fatality statistics, you will find it is the safest in it's class. As far as the controls feeling heavy, that goes away after several hours of learning how to properly use the trim, then it becomes rock solid with hands off stability! I can also take my hand off the collective in forward flight and not touch it again untill it's time to change the power setting for the approach and landing. I got my Private pilot add-on in the R-22 and think it's a great trainer. It is more econonmical to operate and has been great for the flight schools. Since then, I have received the Commercial add-on rating in my Enstrom and should soon have the CFI add-on as well. All the various types of Autorotations in the Enstrom are very safe and easy. These excellent flight characteristics have vastly improved my skills and confidence. I feel safer in an Enstrom than in an R-22, but the R-44 Raven is the only other piston helicopter that I would feel just as safe in. :ok: |
Enstrom F28 share
I am considering purchasing an F28/F28 Shark helicopter with the intention of completing my PPL/H and then building hours towards a CPL/H.
Is their anybody who would be interested in taking a half share or perhaps third share in a helicopter to be based in Hampshire somebody with land or hangerage would be especially welcome. Alternatively is their anybody already owning an Enstrom in the South UK who is considering offering shares. Many thanks Please no comments with reference to pros and cons of Enstrom i've done my research and am quite happy with my choice. |
UK Enstrom Conversion
Where can I get an Enstrom F28F conversion done in the south of England ?
I have looked through the relevant CAA documents and it seems to be a very rare aircraft listed by TRTOs. Only one organisation seems to be current and they are not in the south Any ideas would be welcome |
Blade delamination
Pls forgive a first posting from an Enstrom owner wannabe.
I'd really like to know what to look for when purchasing a Enstrom. I have in mind a low houred 72/73 F28A. Comments please. Questions in my mind are: Is the big gotcha blade delamination? I always thought delamination was a fault of laminated structures but aren't Enstrom blades all metal? Where are the laminations? If delamination occurs what does it look like, how much can be tolerated and how much are new replacement blades and are there options to get hold of low time used blades for southern hemisphere use ;) |
Good morning OOW
Why are you asking about Delam, when by your own admission you dont know what it is, the only sound advice I would suggest is to seek out the service of a good engineer. If you are just asking then it is very difficult for anyone to give youi sufficient information by reading here on this thread, the engineer is THE ONLY SAFE ROUTE. IF HAVE ANY DOUBT'S about your Enstrom PLEASE do not fly it until it is checked out WE do not want to read about any accident with any helicopter if it can be avoided Peter R-B Vfrpilotpb |
Pardon me VFRpilotpb
Do you always bite the heads off newbies? How patronising!
I never said I dont know what delamination is and I didnt say I owned an Enstrom. I do know what it is [from many years with composite fixed wing aircraft] and I am merely looking around for a good second hand helicopter [and Enstroms appear to technically outclass other types in their class]. I'd really like to learn as much as I can so that I can spot a good one. Certain people on PPRUNE always seem to assume their fellow aviators are stupid. You suggest an engineer is the only safe route. When considering buying a house you dont need a licenced engineer to spot if it is falling down. You simply dont buy the house. Do you also suggest paying 200 quid for a building inspectors report before you do your first recce. You pay the licenced engineer for his professional opinion when you have done your own homework and satisfied yourself and before you have paid over the dosh. I am looking for useful advice rather than the _____ obvious. Like telltale signs of delamination on particaulr types. How long you've got when its spotted? How much, if any, is tolerated? OOW |
I´m not a mechanic however I learned that if you suspect blade delamination a quick check could be done by doing a "tap" test, using a US quarter (25 cent) and knocking the blade listening for hollow sound!
In regard to you asking about metal blades and why delamination applies I suspect that the blades are glued together in the same way as R-22 blades and therefore subject to delamination. May I also suggest that you look at H-300 and R-22 if you are looking for a piston helicopter, both very reliable. |
Aesir :
I do hope that 25 cent piece you recommend in your check for delamination has been calibrated. !!!:ok: |
Does a 25 cent piece work on european helicopter blades - or must one use euros? They are right-hand thread, of course.
|
Good Afternoon OOW
I am sorry if you think I have bitten off your head, or I was being patronising, I was trying to impart into your mind the acute seriousness of what you were asking about. Obviously you already know the answer to the question you pose, by the way you phrased your reply in your second post, plus you have jumped in on full red alert . Remember always, Helicopters are totally different than FW craft, and will bite the entire body of any unwary pilot be they high time or low time . I stick with what I said earlier, If you are going to buy any used helicopter,or you already have one off your mate, it should have a full service history and be checked by a fully competant engineer. if that sort of comment winds you up again, well then what can we say! PeterR-B Vfr |
And they wonder why so many helicopter pilots are alcoholics...
This is a generic response - with 5.4 and four preflights in a 280C, I don't claim to be an expert on that particular aircraft. The blades delaminate at the trailing edge, where the metal is bonded. They can also delam at the root. While the delam itself isn't usually immediately critical, the problem is first: corrosion - water gets into the blade, and sooner or later weakens the structure sufficiently to cause failure. The water can also enlarge the delam, especially in winter if it freezes. The second problem is that the delam changes the aerodynamics of the blade. Of course this problem could also be a blessing in disguise, as it provides a possible warning - vibration due to an out-of-track blade. The aforementioned "tap test" can help find a delam, but is in no way guaranteed to. The best way that I know of is to be fairly religious about cleaning the blades (with a non-corrosive cleaner of course), and visually inspecting them. Any new rotor vibration is to be taken very seriously! If you have the patience, use a magnifying glass to inspect (say every X hours in service). Finally, as was previously suggested, start your ownership by having the blades inspected by an A&P who is well versed in the Enstrom, and be sure you have the accurate history of the blades. Since they have no TIS limitations, it behooves you to know "where those blades have been"! |
Peter
Your advice did give the impression you assumed Outofwhack knows nothing. (I know that wasn't intentional.) All he's doing is asking for advice on 'things to look for' so as to reject some machines without going to the expense of an engineeer - not planning to buy without an engineer's inspection. Heliport |
Flingwing207,
Thank you.
Thats the kind of information I need. Much appreciated! Albeit a newbie to rotary, I know enough about fixed wing aviation to know that engineers are not supermen and nobody should give their trust implicitly. Althought I am a new CPLH and an old PPLA, I believe that one doesn't need to pass engineers exams to look along a blade and spot abnormalities. Only to legally condemn them! Don't get me wrong. I have the deepest respect for time served, authentic and honest engineers, who know their stuff. Bravo! But there are some that wing it! [like the engineer who was unfamiliar with my wooden fixed wing aerobatic plane at the last 100 hourly and caused many thousands of dollars unnecessary damage to it]. Anyway, I am bored of fixed wing now I have tasted helicopters. Has anyone got any pluses or minuses about Enstrom F28A. Yours faithfully, OOW |
Maverick laddie & Shy torque:
Hehe..:O I guess its not really absolutely necessary to use a Quarter, I guess its just more a custom. Outofwhack: Im not really very familiar with the F28, however it is my feeling from the many F28´s I´ve seen sitting in hangars around that they are pretty difficult to keep in flyable condition. Sometimes its cheaper in the long run to buy a newer model helicopter like the FX280, S-300 or R-22/44. At the very least if you opt for a low cost 1971 or around that F28 be prepared to have an expensive hangar queen IMHO! However I´m no speicalist in the F28, there has to be someone out there that knows more. I have heard good things about the Enstrom, but the 15 hrs that I have in Enstrom were not that good. I had a lot of mechanical malfunctions during my IFR training in the FX280 Shark Enstrom I trained in. Out of those 15 hrs I flew there was never a single hour without some problems! However I have known a pilot with lot more hrs in them who really liked them and never had problems. |
OOW
A few weeks ago a thread existed that was discussing the merits of Crashworthiness, it was started due to some incident with another R22, from the outcome of that thread it stood out quite well that the Enstrom was or seemed to be the more crashworthy of the bunch of small helis. I have flown both types and to be really honest whilst the Enstrom are not that popular in the UK, they do seem far more sturdy than the others of the same sort of money, but a lot of people have quite a lot of distrust in the engine dept, most of the Cpls that I know always make the comment, that if you fly an Enstrom, it is either just about to, or just had some sort of engine problem. But the ones I have flown have been OK, and feel solid when compared with the R22, which has its own problems PeterR-B Vfr |
Having flown most pistons, I would rate the Enstrom highly - very robust, superb EOL performance. Maybe a bit pricy, but a great training aircraft compared to Robbos, IMHO.
|
OOW, I know nothing of Enstroms, but about the blade delamination -
All metal blades that I know of are laminated. Solid metal blades would be far too heavy and far too expensive to mill. Rotor blades have a metal spar at or near the leading edge, with a honeycomb of some sort behind that, tapering to the trailing edge. The metal skin is laminated to the honeycomb, and to itself at the trailing edge. If the bond separates, the strength of the entire structure is compromised. The usual way to detect this delamination is, as mentioned, tapping the skin with a coin. Be careful, though. I've seen blades that could be dented with my knuckle, and taps with a plastic screwdriver handle or similar completely ruined them. If the delamination is severe enough, you may be able to see it visually, by looking along the blade at a very low angle, and seeing a slight bubble. If you can see it, the blade is likely worthless. |
if you send me your emailaddress i will send you the page out of the manualMAINTENANCE MANUAL
but for starters I. Inspection and Rejection Criteria for Bond Line Corrosive Delamination (1) Main Rotor Blade Inspect edge of all bond lines for separations, visually and coin tap. If inspection reveals evidence of delamination, depth may be checked on trailing edge and doublers with plastic shim stock .001" in thickness. Do not use shim stock to check spar to leading edge delamination, COIN TAP ONLY. CAUTION: Do not use anything other than shim stock to check depth of lamination. (a) Coin tap detectable bond separations at the skin-spar joint in excess of limits in Figure 4-1 and 4-2 are cause for rejection. (b) Visual or coin tap detectable bond separations at the blade trailing edge of more than 3.00 inches in length or deeper than .25 inch are cause for rejection. (See Figures 4-3 and 4-4) (c) Any bond separations on the doubler closer than 2.00 inches to the tip, or more than 3.00 inches in length, or greater than .125 inch in depth are cause for rejection. (2) Tail Rotor Blade Using the same method as in Part (I) (1), inspect all bond lines. (a) Bond separations on the trailing edge deeper than .050 inch or more than 2.00 inches in length are cause for rejection. (b) Any bond separation on the stainless steel cap more than 2.00 inches from the tip or greater in depth than .062 inch is cause for rejection. (c) Any bond separation on the doublers closer than 2.00 inches to the tip of the doubler under which it appears, or greater than 1.00 inch in length, or deeper than .062 inch in depth is cause for rejection. NOTE: Delamination as noted in (1) and (2) which are lesser are acceptable, if procedures in paragraph J are performed. J. Preliminary Repair Procedures for Acceptable Blade Bond Delamination to Arrest Corrosive Action Prior to Refinish (1) Skin to Spar Bond Sealing Procedure (Main Rotor Blade) Separations smaller than the limits shown in Figures 4-1 and 4-2 may be sealed using the following procedure. MM-4-35 i have had 6 enstroms from a f28a to a 480 turbine i found them to be a safe and reliable helicopters ive not had a engine problem or any other major fault and i have over 1000 hrs on enstroms they are also very enconomical to run there are lots of enstrom engineers out there if in doubt ask one of them regards steve |
Helpful post Steve.
Outofwhack If you're serious about getting an Enstrom, you might want to speak to Dennis Kenyon at Shoreham. |
Do you always bite the heads off newbies? How patronising! For whichever type, get an INDEPEDENT engineer to review and assess the machine prior to contract. There are not so many Enstroms in the UK, certainly compared to R22/ R44. There must be a reason for there being so many R44 machines compared to the Enstrom piston machines (take the turbines out of the equation for now for simplicity). Worth looking at the relative maintenance costs and revenue potential if looking to see time as well. If few people have them them less likely to find high hours (safe) pilots to fly them and less maintenance operations to service them. :ok: |
I have a 28A which is a good reliable machine. Maintenance costs are a bit higher than an R22 but that is probably because it is 30 years old . Performance is about the same as a 22 but there is the extra seat. There are quite a few second hand blades around with good history at prices which make Robbie owners green. I got one a few months ago for £1100. Reason for the change was a 3 inch spar delamination which was not dramatic. just a bit of vibration. There is no honeycomb in Enstrom blades. Just air. They are not lifed, except on condition.
It has just done a full year with no days out of service except scheduled maitenance. It flew 121 times in the year. a total of 55 hours. Not much but it is only used for fun. |
OOW, I don't own an Enstrom and I haven't flown one yet, but I've been looking at them for some time.
There are a couple of mods that would be nice to have on an F28A, if you can find a machine that has them. First, Enstrom makes a new thicker walled main rotor drive shaft, that eliminates the touchy track and balance problems of earlier Enstroms. New Enstroms are delivered with the new rotor shaft, and earlier machines can be retrofitted with it. Unless this has been changed, the typical unmodified F28A with the older thin wall rotor shaft, will have the historic touchy track and balance issues. Second, I understand that earlier Enstroms can sometimes have issues with the tail rotor drive bearings. This has been corrected on new machines, and again earlier machines can be retrofitted with the new bearing kit assembly. Also, I understand that Enstroms can sometimes be tricky to service, and most of the drive system alignments have to be done with precision. So when shopping for an Enstrom, be sure to also shop for an excellent Enstrom engineer to service the machine, because you'll need him. An Enstrom that is properly setup and serviced will be a safe, fun, low cost, and trouble free machine to own. An Enstrom that is not properly setup, will be a major headache to own. |
I have had no real big problems with my 280C and found it reasonably inexpensive to operate.
There are a few 280 models for sale at reasonable prices 50 - 80K Sterling and I would think about going for one of these if you can, it has the turbo which helps in hot and high (although even that struggled to get my fat ar$e off in the middle of summer:rolleyes: ) and has a lot more power. The early 28a can be a bit short of power in the summer or 2 up and probably never goes 3 up. The only other downside is the increase in fuel consumtion over the R22 but you can get better than 1 litre/min by leaning it. |
outofwhack...
I would recommend you talk to owners - I have one guy you can contact - he has been operating them commercially for some time now and can give you a good idea of what to expect and look for. [email protected] |
I used to instruct in Enstroms and then in R22s and R44s.
Enstrom advantages: Turbo model can get you out of dangerous situation with extra power (esp at altitude); easier to learn to fly; good preparation for more advanced training eg. night rating, IR, turbine helis; Can do autos and tr failures to the ground every time; Very rugged and tough; crashworthy; No weight limit on seat and plenty room for 2 (cramped for 3); Looks like a proper helicopter; Significant boot space - weekend bag for 2 no problem Enstrom disadvantages: More expensive and fiddly to maintain; blades difficult to keep right and lamiflex bearings esp expensive; SLOW, SLOW, SLOW esp round nosers; More difficult to adapt afterwards to Robbie, esp 22 Detractors would say that it has to be able to auto to the ground in practice because you are going to have an engine failure but others say that's more due to dodgy maintenance in our neck of the woods... |
enstrom vs eurocopter
http://www.shephard.co.uk/rotorhub/D...6-26f7caed1724
Is the 480 4 times better than the 120 , the numbers would suggest LOL. Is there any one out there that has flown both ?. I think the selection process for the basic trainer helicopter , won by the 206B , left a sour taste in all the other contenders mouths . The winning helicopter did not meet the specs in several important areas but was still selected . |
EADS
It is a funny notion perhaps but I think the rift between Enstrom and EADS is based on the fact that France in particular did not partake in this Iraq thingy. And lets face it Eurocopter constantly presents new techology to customers. As for the flying characteristics; I have flown the 480 on a few occasions and I might be wrong but I guess the EC 120 has a slightly bigger cabin though unfortunately can't say much about the EC 120.
This might not contribute to your question but it is perhaps a thought worth thinking of... What I still cannot understand is the fact that the major helicopter manufacturers in North America seem to be sleeping at this stage in regards to competition. Because Bell Helicopter builds supreme aircraft as well as Sikorsky and MD Helicopters, and each and everyone of them is toppled by EADS. They must have a more agressive marketing strategy. And the U.S. government goes out there and contracts a foreign manufacturer for the supply of aircraft. Where is the spirit gone "Buy American"? Is this tactic simply to put even with Europe to create a less hostile attitude? But when I look around everyone flies Squirrels, the EC 135/145, etc... EADS obviously found a better way to present its products and access customers. |
We could've done that.....
....but we didnt.... is the way that whole article reads, if anyone has read it. The question begs....so exactly why didnt you then? Maybe thats why they lost out?
Just an observation. Regards, SD.. |
alouette,
I believe that you may have answered your own question. " ... the major helicopter manufacturers in North America ....must have a more aggressive marketing strategy. Where is the spirit gone 'Buy American'? " IMHO, American manufactures should have been spending more money in their Engineering departments and less in their Marketing departments. The European VTOL manufactures will eventually see competition, but it will be coming from the Far East. |
alouette said "EADS obviously found a better way to present its products and access customers."
Not so obvious to me, alouette. The tired old Super Puma line is losing ground to the S-92, I think. 55 contracts for the 92, vice ?? for the EC-225 says an awful lot. |
Hey Nick!
You know your'e not supposed to advertise for Sikorsky on this site! LOL! From one old SK driver to another, Merry Christmas! Cheers, :ok: OffshoreIgor :ok: |
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