>>Anyway, if I demonstrate an auto as an AFI I can only do them to a recover to the hover anyway. I personally don't see the point of going to the ground because the important part of an auto is an entry. If the student masters the initial entry, control all the way down, and knows the drill, then he has every chance of saving himself.
We all have our own ideas on this I guess.
I learned to fly using the R22 HP without a governor, and , having the lower tail, was great fun drawing lines on grass strips with the stinger!!!!!! <<

I agree with this although I have yet to do one to touchdown in the 22 myself (once my CFI did one from straight in and 180 for show).

I love doing straight auto's, 180 autos .... Am I supposed to be nervous at the end :) So far sometimes, however I'll soon be doing them to the ground itself, my thought was always "What if I have to do one for real?" Well, I'll nail the entry and ride down, and figure if I have that part done, then when I'm near the ground, pre flare and flare will commence and then I see it as keeping skids level and a bit of forward if any.

Maybe I'll get down and then flip over (seems to be the norm in most training auto mishaps I've read) but I'm convinced that I likely will survive the experience.

the only thing that surprised me during my first full touchdown was the increased requirement for right pedal (american helos and the like) as the tail rotor speed diminished, and I think even the novice who is faced with the real thing for the first time will instinctively add more pedal when he/she sees the nose swinging left. The rest seemed pretty straightforward and as I had imagined.

[This message has been edited by lmlanphere (edited 08 February 2001).]

[This message has been edited by lmlanphere (edited 08 February 2001).]

Helimutt and RW-1

You both will soon be doing full on auto's and then like me (1000+ full on EOL's) probably not do pwr recoveries again.

Try this tech for when you are just overhead the only safe landing spot in stong winds and the chance that a 180 turn might leave you short!!!

2000' S&L 70 kts into wind (10kts+)
Hasell chk and all that good instructor stuff
enter and set attitude for ZERO airspeed,
Control Rrpm 98-100%
ROD approx 1800-2200 fpm
groundspeed -10kts (you are now Going Backwards), at 800' adopt normall 60kts attitude, at 500' decide whether or not you will make the spot, go around if not set up properly. If you are happy continue and complete EOL. If you are confident with the a/c then you will be more relaxed, if you are more relaxed you will enjoy the flying more, If you enjoy the flying more your student will be more relaxed, and he in tern will be relaxed and then he is better plced to Learn. Its a thin line between an advanced demo and showing off. the differance being the objective of the demo.

Max,

Oooh! sounds like a nice ride! :)

Will print out and see if my CFI is up to it hehe ...

------------------
Marc

The only times I've been really scared during practice Autos/EOLS are the few times I've done them to a hover recovery. It all goes way too wild far too close to the ground for my liking! Flare, flare, flare, check level, cushion. None of this hauling in power, dancing on the pedals, checking RPM (yup, a couple of them in pre-governor R22s). And I know just how far the damn' things skid on snow when you haven't flared off enough forward speed!

Towards the end of my CPL course, my instructor used to suggest a competition at the end of dual sorties, to see who could perform an EOL to stop astride a couple of paving slabs in the middle of the field. He'd have control, I'd call the entry, I'd have control, he'd call the entry: straights, 180's and a couple of 360's. He nailed it every time. Me? Short, long, wide, the works. By the end of the course, though my misses were only by a matter of a few feet, so the exercise worked. I still owe him several crates of beer, though!

Not able to fly today. Luck of the draw, 4VH in for it's 100 hour.

But R.J. has a point I was thinking about today, and auto to touchdown has to be so much easier than one to a power recovery, for the thing's outlined in the post ...

Soon ...

------------------
Marc

Dare I mention the R22?
 

Toe goes into water......

Still got ten up to now....

OK, someone asked me a question yesterday and I still can't answer it with confidence.

"Why do you recommend pulling the tail down to check TR gearbox oil contents when the POH makes no mention of this?"

True, it only says 'Full and no leaks".

How do you check it is full, especially on the first pre-flight of the day when all of the oil has sunk to the lower level of the front section of the gearbox, not showing in the sight glass without lowering the tail?

If the R22 had a side viewed sight glass like other types then no tail lowering would be necessary, but it doesn't.

If this is a practice that is recommended elsewhere than the POH (eg. a safety course) then where is the source of the advice? All I can remember is being taught it during 'Helicopter pilot 1/1' and I have used it in my first preflight of the day ever since. That is why I have never questioned it I guess.

BTW, it does show me that I can read what I want to read, even to the point of reading things that are not there because if anyone has read that POH from cover to cover many times and still does so (like I do with all types I fly) its me.....

Food for thought?

Replies will be welcomed!

SPS,

The main reason we use to pull down the tail is to have a look at the flex plate that connects the T/R drive shaft to the gear box. Always a good idea. You have probably noticed that there is an inspection hole for just this sort of thing. I remember a Robinson video (actually it may not have been Robinson) for flying schools that showed the pulling down of the tail boom. The only other thing that I can add is that there have been a couple of types of T/R gear box housings, one of which had a lower sight glass.

Hope this helps, cheers.

The tail gearbox itself isn't "level" until you bring down the boom a bit, therefore you lower the boom slightly, which you have to do anyway to check the aft flex coupling.

The other thing one can do when checking the tail sight glass and aft flex coupling, is you can do a check of the main blades when each comes around to you, the angle gives you a good look at the upper surface, etc.

I also look at the tail blade drain holes at this point, as since I'm holding the boom down, I have a good view down to them, rather than looking up as they spin by, (also noting that the blade tip weights are installed)

------------------
Marc

Very good points all of them and good for those who read only. But the POH still makes no mention of lowering the tail boom for any of these checks and I want to know if this is a 'spurious' practice that has been passed around on the Pilot network or is it in some literature or directive?

By definition we have to work by prescribed
'rules' and this does not figure in them. That is not to say it is an unacceptable practice, it may be interpretation of what you have to do, eg. check TR Gbox is 'Full' of Oil. (But you can only do it by lowering the tail.)

A trip to engineering today might throw some light on it.....Then again.....it might not !

RW, are your TR blades rotating as you check the drain holes?!

Thanks for the replies up to now.

I once asked my friendly engineer that question and he told me that the sight glass should be full when the tail is right down to the ground, so that is what I do. the oil is usually so thick when it is cold that that is the only way you can see it anyway.

Problem is that if your pasenger gets in because it is cold standing waiting, the tail is very heavy to pull down!

It also checks that the skids are not frozen to the ground as happened recently in a UK accident.

SPS,

As Rotorque says, the (POH) reason you are pulling the tail down is to check the tail rotor Flex Coupling. Any other checks you may be able to do whilst there are a bonus.

Personally, I find that I have so much going on holding the tail down, rotating the TR, trying to keep clothes and arms away from it, counting bolts on the Flex Coupling etc etc, that I prefer to check the other stuff mentioned by RW-1 with the beast resting back on its skids.

SPS, No, at the point where I have a tail blade where I want it, I stop to look at it and continue .... :)

Muff, don't know about "all the way tot he ground" though ... you only need to level the boom itself to take the sight glass reading, you'll go further to do your aft flex coupling check. I level the boom in prep for that, and verify oil level int he gearbox, then bring the boom down further for the coupling check.

You could consider the POH for a cessna, if I remember correctly (don't have it here to check) for the walkaround it has check flaps, but you learn from others to lower the flaps for the walkaround (and to check them)

For that matter, when first learning the Robbie preflight, my orig manual has notes onthe pre-flight, such as noting the number of nuts on the coupling (duh) and even better it has the teletemps check (Main gearbox area and upper and lower bearing, and on some the driveshaft from clutch to main tranny), but doesn't specifically tell you in the POH how many you are checking ....

------------------
Marc

Section 8-8 of the POH
TAIL ROTOR GEAR BOX OIL
If the sight gage does not (FILL) with oil when the tail of the helicopter is pulled all the way down, oil must be added.

Muffin

Don't know if you were being serious when you mentioned 'Problem is that if your pasenger gets in because it is cold standing waiting, the tail is very heavy to pull down!'
This puts all the stress through four bolts holding your tail on and should be avoided.

More....

Maintenance say that the correct TR gearbox oil level is when the oil is halfway filling the sight glass with the aircraft in the 'rigged' position, ie. when it has the front of the skids raised to such a height that a spirit level placed by the mixture control (pointing fore/aft) shows the aircraft is level over the ground, not relying on the skids.

The amount that the skids must be lifted (and the tail moved down) would depend on the individuality of R22's, something which is due to many things. (not least that they are all hand built and vary from new) A major factor is how the undercarriage may have changed from its original shape due to engine off landings and so on. It is one of the reasons the 'stinger' has to be over 36" from level ground on an R22B.

The tail is higher with the skids fully aground than it would be with the Heli. in the rigged position. Does this suggest that the Gbox oil level cannot be properly checked unless the tail is lowered?

I did give some thought to another aspect. If moving the Heli out of a hangar (or anywhere) for the first flight of the day you'd be using the wheels and lowering the tail to push and steer.....So, the sight glass should show its level then and no separate lowering of the tail is required......Until you have to do the aft TR flex coupling check!

This has been an interesting exercise in understanding the POH. It seems that even these can have anomalies and it looks as though at least two have shown up here. The POH should tell you how to check the oil level, from which position and how to get it to the required position, not just say 'Full and no leaks'.

I'm sure that more info will come to light yet.

....And it HAS....

Rotorhead 4 is correct, POH 8.8 says this;

'If the sight gauge of the Helicopter does not fill when the tail of the Helicopter is pulled all the way down, oil muct be added'
and it goes on to describe how oil is added... (Although I'm sure you'd have to be a licenced engineer to do it).

So, two pieces of info suggect that you should lower the tail and one fails to tell you to do it in the pre-flight. Confusing?
Well it could be!

Anyway, I'm sure that some find this interesting and others find it all rather boring but there was a point to it -

If a habit of incorrectly checking TR Gbox oil had circulated, one which did not appear in the POH then it might just have been significant. Would any of us advocate tilting the engine to make the dipstick read apparently more sump oil content? :)

Finally for Muffin... Today I had a description of a 'crease' being put in the front lower part of the tailcone by someone who tried to do the check whilst his passenger was in the cockpit....Repair bill
$15,000 NZ.

The advice that tail lowering can be a good way to check that your skids are not stuck to the ground was included in a previous post and I just happen to know the guy who gave it..!

Thanks all.

I'd have to say that I perfered the power recovery in the R22 for a simple reason. Landing at the airport was not as good a teaching tool after the initial procedure is mastered.

The autos should be done out in the area, surprises, to whatever fiels is available. The site hasn't been inspected, so always overshoot or power recovery.

I also find the power recovery in the R22 quite manageable, there is too little time with the inertia available to allow a student good leeway and still be able to fix a mistake on the touchdown autos.

Just my thoughts.

Helo -

I was taught to switch the governor out and hold the throttle right up to the detentif going to the ground. There is not much chance (if any at all) of the instructor (or student) recovering RPM if it all goes wrong close to the ground, maybe the student is 'frozen' and clamps the throttle closed with fear (not all, of course).

More and more in UK instructors were converting to leaving the governor on
and this is the case in NZ, no one switches it out (for many reasons) and many leave the throttle set just below 80% for the fastest possible RPM recovery.

It is easy to recover as just a 'tweak; causes the governor to 'catch' and affords a lot of protection if going to the ground.

Agree on the need for 'surprises' as a string of approches to nice firendly airfeids gets away from the real point and much prefer to focus on getting to 10ft/10kt or so.

full touchdowns require the throttle be rolled completely off to keep the correlator from adding power on the collective pull- and getting the throttle of an R22 to stay in the overtravel spring takes a good grip (especially when you're sweating bullets) so Helo is right about recovery time being more critical once you have committed yourself to the full touchdown - one good thing about the overtravel spring on the r22 is that when let go the throttle tends to add power on its own, helping get the engine back up to speed... problem is getting a frightened student to let go

I agree there, letting go is usually enought to spring it into the governor low limit range and if I add at the proper time the governor brings it back up. I don't have to move it too much myself. It is a strong spring though, sometimes I'll slip on descent and it will want to climb up on me.

I suppose we could say "Thankfully" if it's a real engine out procedure it won't be resuming power on one would it? :)

------------------
Marc

I think that doing the part of a pre-flight which envolves pulling the tail down with a passenger onboard in VERY Foolish, and I have to add that I hope that was mentioned in jest!

You are right about the filling of the trgb it is generally done with the aircraft on a flat surface, and similarly with the mrgb. My engineers and pilots all check both levels with the aircraft on flat ground. (Well, as flat as is possible!)

Another thing which I would say to all pilots, just for safety's sake, when doing the 'tail pully downy' bit do it with the ground handling wheels ON!!!
It gives the tailcone a fighting chance of not being crinkled!

Fly safe, and remember,

Some days you are the statue and some days you are the Pigeon!!!

And some days you are a statue of a Pidgeon...

Thanks for the confirmation!

A Sparrow :)

R 22 Startup checklist
 

Received a lot of amendments for the R22 POH a few days ago, along with a new cards for approved startup/shutdown procedure.

I haven't examined all of the changes fully but two major changes (there are others)have caused me to think about the effects. They are;

Mag check now at 75% and not 100% RPM

and

'Idle OK' is now omitted from the list,
where it used to say 'Check needle split, idle OK'.

In the case of the mag check, how good an idea is it to do this at 75%? Won't any drop be less evident? I am waiting for a reaction from Lycoming on this as it seems more logical to do such a check at 100%, as is done with most aircraft this engine is fitted to.

In the case of the latter I have real concerns that a check on idle speed was a very important safeguard, especially on the first start of the day in cool and dmap condtions. I've seen the engine stop at idle
when doing the sprag clutch check due to the
icing conditions present.

I guess that this may have been modified to cover the R22BII (which has a level of 'automatic'carb heat application) but feel it might be a retrograde step for other models with manual only carb heat application.

Anyway, for the avoidance of doubt, 12" or so MP on the warmup sequence needs carb heat application just like any other power setting below 18" if conditions conducive to carb icing exist and it will now be even more important to emphasise that now this useful little 'flag' had gone.

Any comments ?

Hi Steve,

I received my bundle too, haven't gone thru it.

It amazes me that I got a new POH and it SPIRAL bound, where all the mods are three hole punched, cannot one get a straight shot at how the POH will be? :)

I can only think that possibly, the Nr reduction for the mag check was to minimize a change of tipping/moving the heli while one's attention is diverted to performing the check itself. I was taught that when I'm in the lower half of the checklist adfter the clutch check, when I'm getting my MP values off the chart, final tuning of radios, etc. To do that at 70-75% instead of at 100% then bring it up onto the governor when you have finished the checklist, stowed it and are ready to go.

Makes sense to me that that might be it, but I would agree with you in asking if the values would be reliable.

Don't know on the removal of the "idle ok."

But I'll ask around.

don't remember if I kept my old three ring POH cover, if so I'm chopping off the spiral from my new POH and retrofitting it into the binder, if I don't have it it's going to become three holed anyway, wtih lose rings, like a Mil checklist .... :)

------------------
Marc

at 75% the low rpm warning horn would tell the unwary pilot that the collective was not full down, maybe that's the reason...

Good points all and have to agree that it is safer to do the check at 75% for many reasons
but does the check itself mean as much?

I thought mag.s should be checked at 'full chat' to get an accurate assessment. Also,
now the 7% isn't 7% of 100% but 7% of 75%
(ie. closer to 10% of 100%).

That has to be a larger allowable drop before the fail/pass limit is reached?

On plankers these Lycoming 4 cylinders are NOT mag checked at full power.

I see no problem with doing it at 75%


------------------
More volts, Igor

Either the mags work or they don't(to degree), along with the carb heat. When you chop the throttle to check the sprag it will go to idle you can then go to the governor on low rotor rpm check.

[This message has been edited by rotorhead4 (edited 23 February 2001).]

I remember someone telling me once that the cooling fan is more prone to cracking while the mag check is done at 100%. The change in speed etc. or vibration induced.

It sounded good to me at the time.

On RPM for Mag chk - if I remember Robinson are trying to avoid prolonged time at 100% lever down to avoid resonance of the clutch leaf springs (we remember flickering clutch lights). This has been rectified but I guess it is still a concern.

Old thread - pulling tail down to view aft flex coupling/oil. Inspection of aft flex plate does not feature in new check list???.

Changes to POH mainly to incorperate Beta II
carb. heat assist and the normal changes of terminology (1 USG of fuel remainig - engine will run out after 5mins cruise power as opposed to may run out) etc

Lots of other changes - something I have just figured out - the recent changes in POH are identified by vertical lines next to the text (left on left page, right on right page)
prob old news

Talk.

Not old news to me (the lines), I hadn't noticed, and welcome to the forum BTW.
Indeed the Beta II is now in but I have to confess that I have not studied it all in detail yet.

There is heaps of good stuff coming out in this thread and its all of great value.

I'm still a little concerned that now the fail for the mags is now 10% and used to be 7%, not a factor for the experienced R22 pilot who will feel a problem anyway but I'm thinking of Mr Tyro(as we MUST!)and he (she) might be tempted give it a 'pass at 8% drop when he might have failed it at 7% beforehand...

Also 'idle OK' going missing from the needle split is a worry. It is crucial to check that the idle really IS OK on a cold and damp day, esp. for the first start (mainfold not up to full temp, so carb heat slightly less effective).

Pedantic I know, but that is what the 'P'is for!

Anyway, keep it all coming!

SPS

If a little knowledge is dangerous, greater knowledge promotes safety................

SPS

The reason for the 75% mag check is, or rather was clutch leaf springs/micro switches. (As I mentioned before and prob not anything to do with the fan)
After FAA appoval of 75% mag checks (13OCT00) they had sorted the spring thing.

I agree with you on the 7% 2sec prob.
Best to do a mag check at 104% and pulling power (low hover) - seriously not advisable.
Doing a mag check at low power/rpm is hardly noticeable so therefore 75%erpm 4% 2secs may be closer to the mark.

___
O-o
"`

SPS:
Have to agree that the "idle check" okay should be left on the checklist. If the first flights of the day are practising autos and a student finds himself with the engine stopping completely when splitting the needles, just makes people worried if a full EOL might have to be carried out.
I have experienced the engine stopping when doing sprag clutch check on a couple of occasions. Am I right in thinking that the new Robbo POH thing is to apply full carb heat straight away while the engine is warming up anyway. I've been doing that for a while now but heard it was to be the norm? It stops you forgeting carb heat application and ensures it's been applied for a while b4 sprag clutch check.
Remember, there are still a load of R22's out there without carb heat assist, and thats all it is, ASSIST!!!

I believe the mag check at 75% is for the same reason as the R44. When selecting left/right mag you can accidently switch the engine off then quickly turn the key back to both which damages the transmission due to the excessive snatching (torque) of the engine on restart. 75% reduces the torque hence less chance of damage to the transmission should you accidently switch off then back to both. obviously if the key switch is turned to off the engine should be restarted in the correct sequence

Stuart

Don't forget that all percentages relate to the actual RPM at 100% and are not a percentage of the current RPM. Similarly, when a turbine engined helicopter requires hover torque plus 20%, you do nothave to work out 20% of the current torque figure, it's relative to 100%.

Although Chips with... is mistaken in thinking 100% RPM at flat pitch is "full power", he is right of course that FW do their check at a lower figure. Eg 1800 RPM with a 2600 red line = about 70%.

It's always interesting when a change comes out with no real explanation; maybe manufacturers could include a brief summary of reasons with ammendments.

------------------
Another day in paradise

212man:

I had thought about comparing it to FW mag checks too earlier, but had not gotten around to it. The comparison seems valid.

I would wish RHC would make up it's mind on manual format. I just completed stripping off the spiral binding and slicing the resultant pages so I could three hole punch them to add my update pack, now I just have to pick up some binder rings to finish :)

Funny they do not already add summaries to amendments, NATOP's always did with theirs.

------------------
Marc

R22 ENGINE STOPS
 

I recently read an article in the UK of 2No R22's which suffered engine failure due to air starvation. Apparently the paper air filter can get saturated with moisture when landing frequently on snow or when left outside overnight during rain / high moisture conditions.

Also any AAIB / NTSB subsequent investigations following any fatal accidents would find it difficult to determine the reason for the engine failure due to the filter drying out prior to the inspection of the aircraft

Older R22's had a spring loaded flap which would open if air starvation was a problem when newer models are not fitted with these flaps.

Any other incidents simular ?

I can't give deatils of any similar occurrence(s) as I have not 'wrriten up' the two that I intend to write about in the future. However, I can speak with knowledge of the two you mention because one of them directly involved me and both happened here in NZ. I wrote the article you quote, which was published in 'Rotor Torque,' the Heli. Club of GB's magazine. You precis of it is very accurate.

Full accounts of the occurrences described in the magazine article may be found on my website by selecting 'Occurrences' and then following the titles. Both are posted separately. (Web address is in my 'profile')

If there is sufficient interest in these accounts from other pprune forum members then I will arrange to post them directly onto this site under a a new thread.

Up to you ppruner's - If you want them posted, let me know.

Regards

SPS

I forgot to mention....

There is a similar occurrence (air starvation) described under 'Safety matters', also found on my site.

Same deal - If enough ppruners want to see that posted then I'll do that too. Let me know.

SPS

If a little knowledege is dangerous, greater knowledge promotes safety.

212man:
Never thought for a moment that 100% RPM was full power.

I mentioned full power because SPS said "full chat", and I know that 100% RPM (or 100% power for that matter) with a FW fixed pitch prop would (a) be unachievable on the ground and (b) would overwhelm the brakes.

Anyway I think we all understood each other really.

I'm sure SPS didn't mean full power either!!



------------------
More volts, Igor