Electric tail rotor; an alternative?
I think they are all doing it wrong. It would be much simpler if there was an electric motor out on the boom and simply switch it off when not needed... |
Chopjock, the RAF SAR Wessex which crashed into the lake in Wales with cadet passengers on board had a tail rotor dis-connectable coupling failure.
First of all you complained that a tail rotor drive system is too unreliable but now you want to make it more complicated and therefore by definition less reliable...what sort of logic is that? |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10324913)
I think they are all doing it wrong. It would be much simpler if there was an electric motor out on the boom and simply switch it off when not needed...
|
There is a cure for Trolls.
Friends don't let friends troll. |
Trolling makes sarcasm look like genius. Only practiced by the wittless. |
Originally Posted by Nadar
(Post 10324947)
Everybody relax, the above statement should make it perfectly clear that he's just trolling you.
|
Chopjock should show us his design for the Fail Safe Helicopter....one that cannot have any kind of failure.....then explain how to sell them, maintain them, and operate them as he seems to have all the answers.
|
Seems to me that an electric tail rotor is a rather good idea |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325356)
Only until someone forgets to switch it on, or the motor, the switch or the wiring fails...
|
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325356)
Only until someone forgets to switch it on, or the motor, the switch or the wiring fails...
|
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10325370)
You could have it on by default with the ability to switch it off if you want, like when in the cruise or during an un commanded full pedal emergency...
|
An electric tail rotor could be switched off in the cruise and yaw control achieved by a simple aeroplane style rudder. It would save energy, reduce noise and help significantly with component life. Overall, I think this could be a winner
|
Originally Posted by dClbydalpha
(Post 10325344)
Seems to me that an electric tail rotor is a rather good idea.
Actually, why not the main rotor too? They do it in ships so why not aircraft? Would take a lot of development though...... Elon Musk? |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10325370)
You could have it on by default with the ability to switch it off if you want, like when in the cruise or during an un commanded full pedal emergency...
Perhaps start a new thread to discuss? |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10325370)
You could have it on by default with the ability to switch it off if you want, like when in the cruise or during an un commanded full pedal emergency...
|
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325470)
But you would need it on for takeoff and landing, which is where your argument began. Even if you have lost sight of that, I haven't.
|
Originally Posted by jellycopter
(Post 10325431)
An electric tail rotor could be switched off in the cruise and yaw control achieved by a simple aeroplane style rudder. It would save energy, reduce noise and help significantly with component life. Overall, I think this could be a winner
But wait, someone already thought of that... |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325477)
Or, you could have a less complicated design turned by a simple and very reliable mechanical driveshaft and have an aerodynamic tailfin which allows the pitch of the blades to be reduced to near neutral in cruise flight.
But wait, someone already thought of that... |
An electric motor would need to supply a lot of horsepower and it might be just as heavy as a gearbox. The aircraft would also need at least one large generator to supply power to it. Stopping a rotor blade in flight comes with its own set of aerodynamic problems.
But anything is possible, all engineering design is a compromise and let's not forget that most things in engineering have been tried already. There's nothing much simpler than a driveshaft turning a gearbox. |
A single turbine generator with battery backup to provide "instantaneous" torque and sufficient reserve to get safely on the ground in the event of generator failure? Would probably be good to have a sprag clutch too.
|
Originally Posted by gevans35
(Post 10325462)
I think so too, powered by a generator run off the main engine(s).
Actually, why not the main rotor too? They do it in ships so why not aircraft? Would take a lot of development though...... Elon Musk? I can see only one thing that speaks for an electric TR and that is that you wouldn't need pitch controlled blades. I'll mention a few things that come to mind that speaks against it, although I'm sure there are many more:
|
Sorry as this seems to have drifted from the main thread.
The advantages of an electric tail rotor is that it can run at speeds independent of the main rotor. This allows the design to not be limited to one compromise. It, importantly, gives greater control over noise. The assumption that a motor would be as heavy as a TGB, IGB, MGB tail pickoff and driveshaft is not one that I would make. |
Great discussion chaps, but don't put your patent applications in just yet, think you've been beaten to it... If I'm not mistaken the team at Leonardo won an award for their work from the RAeS the other evening as well! |
Originally Posted by pba_target
(Post 10325545)
YouTube linky: electric tail rotor
Great discussion chaps, but don't put your patent applications in just yet, think you've been beaten to it... If I'm not mistaken the team at Leonardo won an award for their work from the RAeS the other evening as well! |
Originally Posted by pba_target
(Post 10325545)
YouTube linky: electric tail rotor
Great discussion chaps, but don't put your patent applications in just yet, think you've been beaten to it... If I'm not mistaken the team at Leonardo won an award for their work from the RAeS the other evening as well! |
Most things have already been tried as already mentioned in this thread. What would surprise me is if an electric tail rotor would be competitive when it comes to reliability and efficiency as long as the power plant is a combustion engine.
Here is a paper on the model shown in the youtube clip, although I didn't see much of interest in there: http://www.cleansky.eu/sites/default...3_-_eletad.pdf It's obvious that an electrical TR could be made, it would probably be much cheaper to produce than the current mechanical solutions as well. What I seriously question is whether it would be "competitive" with regards to the criteria that matter, especially when it comes to safety. How would you do a autorotation with an electrical tail rotor? |
Nadar
How would you do a autorotation with an electrical tail rotor? |
Nadar, there are efficiencies to be gained by the ability to vary tail rotor speed. It allows a designer to move the compromise points. Plus as I stated before the ability to tailor the noise footprint.
As to autorotation, how much torque is the tail rotor dealing? |
As to autorotation, how much torque is the tail rotor dealing? Irrespective of how the turning rotor is actually powered, it still needs a blade pitch control system. Varying the speed of rotation isn't the full answer. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325613)
That depends on if you want to turn (left or right) and keep the aircraft in balance.
I also wonder why the assumption that an electric tail rotor wouldn't work in autorotation? |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325613)
Irrespective of how the turning rotor is actually powered, it still needs a blade pitch control system. Varying the speed of rotation isn't the full answer.
|
Originally Posted by dClbydalpha
(Post 10325615)
Accepted, but say as a ROM % of that in powered hover?
I also wonder why the assumption that an electric tail rotor wouldn't work in autorotation? b) Did anyone assume it wouldn't work in autorotation? I certainly didn't. However, the tail rotor would still absorb a lot of energy even in autorotation so presumably its electrical power generator would need to be driven by the main rotor transmission, or a very large capacity battery would be required if engine driven generators no longer provided electrical power. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325635)
a) I'm not familiar with the term ROM%
b) Did anyone assume it wouldn't work in autorotation? I certainly didn't. However, the tail rotor would still absorb a lot of energy even in autorotation so presumably its electrical power generator would need to be driven by the main rotor transmission, or a very large capacity battery would be required if engine driven generators no longer provided electrical power. |
Surely you cannot be serious?
|
I would think battery. Battery technology is going forward in leaps and bounds so maybe not so big
|
ShyTorque, my apologies, ROM is Rough Order of Magnitude. I ask because this determines the power demand at a critical phase.
Nadar seems to have implied that auto with an ETR would be different to "conventional". I'm not sure why this would be the case, in auto I would presume a design where the MGB is still driving the generators. Question for my own interest, how many helicopters out there revert to battery when in autorotation and how many retain electrical generation? note: during "conventional" autorotation, the tail rotor is powered by the MGB. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10325639)
Surely you cannot be serious?
|
OMG there are dozens of chop jocks now, invading this thread!
What happened to the original thread FFS? Electric TR's. Where do these people come from? :sad: |
I had a small RC helicopter with an electric tail rotor once. Worked fine until it sparked a few times and stop dead.
I dont think this helps any. Just thought I would share playing it safe since the mods deleted my last post |
Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
(Post 10325716)
I had a small RC helicopter with an electric tail rotor once. Worked fine until it sparked a few times and stop dead.
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 23:11. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.