Originally Posted by HarryMann
(Post 10295416)
Here we go again in the press... Hero pilot steers helicopter away from crowds/city/hotel/school
"Witnesses said...." |
Would be interesting if the club has a model of the stadium, then the AAIB could put it in a wind tunnel and see the effects of wind shear across the top of the stadium.
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Originally Posted by BigEndBob
(Post 10295350)
North and north easterly winds here in the Midlands so lifting out with a tailwind crosswind across the top of the stadium?
And what are those metal triangle structures above the stadium, could they have struck tail rotor on one of those? . |
Originally Posted by MATELO
(Post 10295395)
..If the main rotor failed, could it stop straight away?? & would t/r put the helicopter in a spin if that was still working?? 2. Yes. For example, TR servo fail to full extension/retraction will cause it to spin one way or the other (very unlikely however, the other servo would probably need to have an undetected internal leak as well). |
Irrespective of the cause I imagine there are many pilots contemplating why oh why billionaires and/or their staff accept pseudo 2-crew ops? I have to admit that several years ago I sat ‘in the left’ to give the impression of 2 pilot ops for a corporate job - but atleast I was an ATPL(H), PIC on similar sized machine and it was a day VFR. Not for one minute am I saying that the end result would have been any different if it was operated by a qualified ‘crew’ but why would the flight not have been operated as such - for all sorts of reasons? Are we (the industry) our own worst enemy? I also hasten to add that this ‘practice’ is not just restricted to rotary as a recent biz-jet ‘overun’ Incident in US has highlighted |
Originally Posted by EESDL
(Post 10295463)
Irrespective of the cause I imagine there are many pilots contemplating why oh why billionaires and/or their staff accept pseudo 2-crew ops? I have to admit that several years ago I sat ‘in the left’ to give the impression of 2 pilot ops for a corporate job - but atleast I was an ATPL(H), PIC on similar sized machine and it was a day VFR. Not for one minute am I saying that the end result would have been any different if it was operated by a qualified ‘crew’ but why would the flight not have been operated as such - for all sorts of reasons? Are we (the industry) our own worst enemy? I also hasten to add that this ‘practice’ is not just restricted to rotary as a recent biz-jet ‘overun’ Incident in US has highlighted |
Firstly I'm merely a recreational S300C Pilot, who only once could experience a Cat-A takeoff demonstration during someone's EC135 rating renewal. (of course during daylight, at an airfiled)
I can't help but challenge the departure. I would have recommended/conducted a) a vertical towering take off at the farthest possible place of the stadium so that the "Cat-A emergency path in front of me" would be as long as possible, b) and of course from a position where the vertical takeoff would render the AC in headwind, once above stadium height.. Reasons: Climbing vertically, the necessary amount of attitude change to "emergency nose down" is less than when being in the nose up "climb backwards portion" of a CAT-A dep. Being at the farthest possible downwind position at takeoff would give me the longes possible headwind emergency escape. Pls point out any errors in my "suggested" stadium takeoff. |
I have some points to throw into the pot. I don't mean to imply they have any relevance to this accident but are perhaps useful while everyone is thinking TR. Many years ago I lost drive to the TR in an A109 Mk1. I was in the cruise at 5,000' when it went. Here are the things I learned …
In the end, if I'm honest, there was an awful lot of luck involved. |
Another thing that amazes me while reading the posts in this thread are the numerous suggestions the a/c ended up in tailwind once it cleared the stadium walls.
These clearly can only be wrong speculations. Would one consider any takeoff, being towering or Cat-A, that has the a/c end up in tailwind after the climb, gross neglect? Given the crew's reputation I can't imagine any condition, that would have them choose a climb into tailwind, or am I just a PPL(H) missing something? |
Originally Posted by tartare
(Post 10295421)
Well in this case it appears he might have.
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One would assume it would spin downwind, as looks in this case.
Or would point of failure cause a resonance or bias as it pitches up and down. |
Originally Posted by Reely340
(Post 10295494)
..I can't imagine any condition, that would have them choose a climb into tailwind...
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme
(Post 10294719)
Is there any reason that there has been no official confirmation of who was on board? RIP |
Originally Posted by FlightlessParrot
(Post 10295520)
...For this to happen, there needs to be positive identification...
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Originally Posted by hargreaves99
(Post 10295536)
- hitting an obstacle on departure (main rotor or tail rotor)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....48c27acda7.png |
There has been some comment on the decision to take off from a inside the stadium. Two things strike me. This has been standard practice for this flight for many years, so I would imagine most scenarios would have been considered. Secondly operating in confined spaces would appear to be part of standard training for helicopter pilots. Near where I was working a few years ago, there was a copse with a small clearing in the middle. Regularly we would see helicopter training flights drop into the clearing and manoeuvre inside. There wasn't much room and occasionally we would hear twigs being broken... So I imagine that a pilot of the experience involved in this flight would have had the competence required to conduct the take off. Further it appears that as reported earlier in this thread that the video which has attracted much comment was not filmed on the night of the accident. |
The usual suspects are making statements of certainty already.....as is their habit...despite knowing nothing of what caused the accident.
Would you rocking chair experts give it a rest and at least have the courtesy to stipulate that you are working off pure fantasy. Perhaps ya'll might just put a sock in it until some real facts are provided where by you might begin to have a reasonable basis for your conjecture. Yes....this is pprune but even that does not excuse some of the posts being. made. |
Originally Posted by Dawdler
(Post 10295572)
There has been some comment on the decision to take off from a inside the stadium. Two things strike me. This has been standard practice for this flight for many years, so I would imagine most scenarios would have been considered. Secondly operating in confined spaces would appear to be part of standard training for helicopter pilots. Near where I was working a few years ago, there was a copse with a small clearing in the middle. Regularly we would see helicopter training flights drop into the clearing and manoeuvre inside. There wasn't much room and occasionally we would hear twigs being broken... So I imagine that a pilot of the experience involved in this flight would have had the competence required to conduct the take off. Further it appears that as reported earlier in this thread that the video which has attracted much comment was not filmed on the night of the accident. All true. At my prof.check in 2017 the FI had me land in a clearing in the woods and do a towering takeoff. Of course it was the size of two tennis courts as he's the owner of the ATO and the helos, so he positively does not want me whack any twigs. The video just proves that there were departures done from the stadium as vertical takeoffs as well as Cat-A departures. What is missing is - actual takeoff position and type done that night - reliable information about wind right above/around the stadium, - the information flow (phone,hand signals, word-of-mouth, online internet-lookup of rooft-top stadium weather station, close by ATC, whatever) of wind parameters to the crew hence the enormous amount of specualtion. But thats what PPRuNe is designed for, right? Those who only want "official" facts should resort to the AAIB website. |
Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 10295540)
Not really. The passenger manifest is sufficient. Positive identification in all likelihood wouldn't have happened yet.
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 10295540)
Not really. The passenger manifest is sufficient. Positive identification in all likelihood wouldn't have happened yet.
I'm not saying it's right but I am saying that it's the way it is for the vast majority of private / corporate helicopter flights in UK. |
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