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Originally Posted by SFIM
(Post 9724468)
The owner has been flying since 2000, and has high experience.
I have no idea whether he was the one actually flying yesterday And again as an objective comment, experience is only relevant to the conditions and environment in which it is gained. I am sure there are very experienced VMC pilots out there. Perception of experience can be a dangerous thing. Again, I am commenting in general terms, not to the facts in this case. I do not know who was flying or experience they had in these circumstances. |
helicrazi
I think the issue is the level of knowledge of a PPL and the misunderstanding or lack of comprehension of the risks involved A PPL is 45 hours, it really is nothing at all, we forget the lack of experience gained in those hours, and CPLs never have CFIT issues either? |
Originally Posted by whoknows idont
(Post 9724483)
The PPL also has the freedom of the ground! No-go decision made real easy if you don't have to justify it in front of paying customers or employers...
I don't know about you but I've been overly suspicious about the weather from day one of flying. And we are not talking about a 20yo happy-go-lucky thrill-seeker here. We are talking about two parents taking an unnecessary risk to leave their children as double orphans in an instance. If they took that risk without being at least partially aware of it then they didn't do their homework. Not as a pilot and not as a parent, period. NO understanding whatsoever! I totally agree. |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 9724489)
helicrazi
I suppose there are no PPLs with thousands of hours of experience then? and CPLs never have CFIT issues either? |
You can have thousands of hours experience, yet not know much about mountain flying, which is a whole different ballgame.
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You use your experience not to get into situations where you need your experience to get out of them.
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Originally Posted by Heli Fat
(Post 9724344)
Why is it when something like this happens you all turn into experts all of a sudden!! Let the professionals handle it and stop speculating!
Thoughts to the families involved I looked at all the bulletins relating to the twin squirrel - and what percentage do you think where weather related? And I posted we simply don't know the cause yet. But I am pretty sure that weather will be one of the holes in the swiss cheese. |
A PPL is 45 hours, it really is nothing at all, we forget the lack of experience gained in those hours, yet the freedom of the skies is given. Many students require more than 45 hours - they have to be up to the standard required for a skills test before they can be recommended for test and then they have to pass. |
Originally Posted by fireflybob
(Post 9724527)
Incorrect - a PPL requires a minimum of 45 hours total flying prior to skills test.
Many students require more than 45 hours - they have to be up to the standard required for a skills test before they can be recommended for test and then they have to pass. |
Originally Posted by fireflybob
(Post 9724527)
Incorrect - a PPL requires a minimum of 45 hours total flying prior to skills test.
Many students require more than 45 hours - they have to be up to the standard required for a skills test before they can be recommended for test. As an aside - notice that there are 3 formal reports that year into S61 accidents! An interesting contrast to today's social media fed Super Puma frenzy...,, |
A PPL course is 45 hours. Semantics but the point I'm making is that 45 hours is the minimum required to qualify - a point I make to all students I teach right at the beginning of their training. Very few students qualify within 45 hours as it depends on their ability, the weather and other factors. In fact the 45 hours minimum is prior to skills test and typically the test takes getting on for 2 hours. |
Originally Posted by fireflybob
(Post 9724537)
Semantics but the point I'm making is that 45 hours is the minimum required to qualify - a point I make to all students I teach right at the beginning of their training.
Very few students qualify within 45 hours as it depends on their ability, the weather and other factors. In fact the 45 hours minimum is prior to skills test and typically the test takes getting on for 2 hours. |
Birmingham....... , I'm glad you mentioned swiss chesse, you obviviously understand the reason model of error.
Fireflybob, while the intial training is important, I still feel in respect of flying my ex instructors and examiners (oddly includiing your insprational father) which are still sitting on my shoulders which is a good thing. But flying is about personal development, improving your skills, knowing the risks. understanding your limitations in terms of human factors related to the operation. , |
I will fly fixed wing with private pilots , but not helos. I advise my family to do the same. I want a commercial pilot who has enough hours that he has already scared himself . Keeps me safe(r). Too many low time owner/operators pushing the weather and get there-itis taking its toll year after year. Very sad event , and unnecessary. Poor kids.
If I had the $$ for a TwinStar I would also pay a good pilot to run the marginal weather. |
The owner has been flying since 2000, and has high experience. |
But flying is about personal development, improving your skills, knowing the risks. understanding your limitations in terms of human factors related to the operation. |
SFIM, what do you regard as "high experience" I was just making the point that this particular pilot was not in that category. I have seen some PPL's who have better flying skills and airmanship (TEM) than many CPL's and ATPL's i have seen, but mostly as you would expect the reverse is true. As for your question it's subjective but anything in the 000's clearly is going to be more effective than 45(47) hours ! |
Originally Posted by SFIM
(Post 9724599)
Mr TipCap, the previous poster to me started "wittering" about how the PPL course is 45 hours.
I was just making the point that this particular pilot was not in that category. I have seen some PPL's who have better flying skills and airmanship (TEM) than many CPL's and ATPL's i have seen, but mostly as you would expect the reverse is true. As for your question it's subjective but anything in the 000's clearly is going to be more effective than 45(47) hours ! |
Most PPL owner/operators do not fly enough hours month after month to have high experience.
You get rusty and skills degrade if not exercised on a regular basis. CPLs have a big advantage as they are forced to fly often. It's easy to forget s## when you've been away from it for extended periods. The rich in general don't have to fly until they have the time to play. |
Tylermonkey - that is the point exactly, decent continuity allows a pilot to reach a reasonable standard within 45 hours for award of PPLH. The problem always occurs after that point where costs become a big issue, there is no post-graduate instruction mandated and no schedule for development training to begin to hone the basic skills.
It is a purely Darwinian selection process where those that have the wherewithal, the finance and the access to further instruction (or are capable of self-analysis and improvement) will get better - those that don't are frequently doomed to bounce just above the bare minimum acceptable level of ability and currency or dip below it and end up as an accident investigation. Businessmen in helicopters must learn to think like pilots, not like businessmen! |
Originally Posted by helicrazi
(Post 9724603)
At risk of 'wittering', it depends what those 000's were doing and how relevant they are to the flying task at hand, which was my previous 'wittering' point
I've often read on here of PPL holders having considerable experience. Please define considerable experience. I have 11 000 hours rotary, another 6 000 fixed wing and consider myself experienced, by no means considerably experienced. I've been IFR through that route in that particular 355, and far more capable aircraft and know it is hard work in the turbulence. Did the P1 hold an IR? Had he trained for mountain flying in very adverse conditions? If not where was his "considerable experience" gained? The rotary skills gap between PPL and ATPL is massive, and few current UK ATPLs would have undertaken that trip without a lot of thought and extra planning and quiet contemplation. The PPL is a license to learn, the CPL/ATPL show a level of learning achieved, with a lot more learning to do every trip. The only "considerably experienced" pilot I've ever flown with retired with 22 700 hours on rotary, all different, all challenging. SND |
And MSA in that region would be in excess of 5000' which isn't the height you bump into terrain if you are flying IFR.
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This was the weather from several stations in NW Wales around the time of the accident.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attac...1&d=1490910706 |
Originally Posted by alphanumeric
(Post 9724491)
mattew harding, steve holditch, G-LBAL, A109 mourne mountains, pete barnes, etc. and many more. it seems this kind of thing will keep happening
and how many other accidents almost occur? Fortunately it was the opposite side of the road from two phone masts near where I was standing, but I wonder how high it had just crossed a road overbridge. It then turned to follow a road that joined at the junction, and carried on out of my view towards where it would have a choice of either straight on over industrial estates and housing, or crossing the road to avoid these and instead worry about crossing a line of electricity pylons and cable (if it would see them). Fortunately there was no accident in the local news a few days later. |
Where have all of you muppets sprung up from ?
Why do you people with no knowledge post such nonsense ? Why not just sit back and listen to the people on here with real knowledge! So much nonsense spoken here, from needing a CPL to fly twins , to an F1 not being able to achieve MSA , to PPL pilots not being experienced so only fly with CPL,s . No wonder the really " experienced" pilots here are keeping out of this nonsense. I would also point out that almost all of the most recent CFIT accidents have all been in twins with very capable and experienced CPL,s . It just proves that none of us are immune to making errors regardless of ratings . And I do not consider myself extremely experienced but I have flown around this area for over 30 years , sometimes in worse weather than I should have . But I would never have been at 2300ft in that area in those conditions. RIP |
Basic question from a fixed wing pilot trying to understand helicopters.
What's the max height that a fully loaded A355 can hover at, OGE? The reason I ask is the similarity of this accident (assumption) to a CFIT crash involving a UH-1H in NZ some years ago following inadvertent entry into IMC at altitude. I assume that slowing down at the sort of altitude that this Squirrel was at when it hit the hill simply isn't an option, because you'd lose lift over the disc and fall out of the sky...? |
Originally Posted by alphanumeric
(Post 9724539)
a thought any ppl who wanted a twin rating needed to pass the cpl exams first?
(1) before starting flight training: (i) have passed the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations; or (ii) hold a certificate of completion of a pre-entry course conducted by an ATO. The course shall cover the following subjects of the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge course: — Aircraft General Knowledge: airframe/systems/power plant, and instrument/electronics, — Flight Performance and Planning: mass and balance, performance; (2) in the case of applicants who have not completed an ATP(H)/IR, ATP(H), or CPL(H)/IR integrated training course, have completed at least 70 hours as PIC on helicopters. So almost correct. Exams or a specific course. This is, of course, from EASA. Can't speak as to what it would have been years ago |
Err not " almost correct " !!
Do you think that a 3 day ground school on the aircraft is in any way close to a full set of CPL exams ??!!! Not to mention the fact that he could also be flying on a FAA licence which doesn't need even a rating . |
Originally Posted by TylerMonkey
(Post 9724568)
..If I had the $$ for a TwinStar I would also pay a good pilot to run the marginal weather.
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So almost correct. Exams or a specific course. This is, of course, from EASA. Can't speak as to what it would have been years ago |
Before I begin. My sincerest condolences to anyone reading this who has a personal connection to those involved. I am deeply sorry for your loss. This is an awful tragedy! I have been far too close to this type of incident myself.
The rotary skills gap between PPL and ATPL is massive On the basis of my reasonable experience, it's the addition of an IR that signifies a robust skills gap between 'amateurs' and true 'professionals.' Though even that is no guarantee! There have been far too many helicopter accidents, ATPL/CPL/PPL involving needless 'VFR' flight in non-VFR weather. Helicopters (or those flying them?) simply lend themselves to placing people into situations where options rapidly, completely disappear. I am unaware of the icing clearance of the AS355, the icing level on the day, and the exact qualifications/experience of the pilot. Maybe these could have been significant? As a professional pilot all my life, I would never ever be a passenger in any aircraft piloted by a 'hobby pilot' (much less a wealthy one's own aircraft) unless the weather was unambiguously perfect! Sorry. I may well be alone in that view? Nobody can yet know whether weather was a factor here. |
Originally Posted by 4468
(Post 9724742)
Nobody can yet know whether weather was a factor here.
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Originally Posted by tartare
(Post 9724693)
...I assume that slowing down at the sort of altitude that this Squirrel was at when it hit the hill simply isn't an option, because you'd lose lift over the disc and fall out of the sky...?
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What's the max height that a fully loaded A355 can hover at, OGE? |
Tartare,
I assume that slowing down at the sort of altitude that this Squirrel was at when it hit the hill simply isn't an option, because you'd lose lift over the disc and fall out of the sky...? As for the that popular old perennial of experience, as Crab mentions, it counts for nothing without post qualification instruction and regular checks. I believe the word in use now is "recency" as opposed to "currency" but neither are meaningful without competency, and competency has to be gained, tested and measured in a structured way. Not everyone needs an ATPL to be competent, but a competent pilot sets and knows their personal limits on planning, weather, hazards and manoeuvres whenever they go flying. |
Thank you Two's in - that's exactly the answer I was looking for.
My sole attempt to hover an R-22 VFR was absolutely pathetic! Hadn't considered the obvious that a safe hover in IMC regardless of performance and all up weight would be very difficult and dangerous. Brownout on landing must be bad enough, full IMC at low speed not worth thinking about. |
The big issue here with currency (recency) and experience is not the ability to fly the helicopter - it is the ability to make decisions, either before getting airborne or once in the air.
Planning to fly that route with the forecast weather is one of those areas where you might assess it as marginal and have a viable plan B (rtb or divert or land) or you might take the risk and push on until you have run out of options. The first option might be that of an experienced pilot or a wary, less experienced one - the second option is likely to be that of someone who has convinced themselves they are good enough to cope with whatever happens and is often the precursor to many CFIT accidents. I wonder if they ran their grand plan past anyone who didn't work for them so they might get the 'voice of reason' to tell them the idea was a crap one. A frustratingly pointless loss of life. |
With the bad weather that closed in, could there have been a degree of spacial disorientation too?
From various reports the route chosen was one the pilot had completed several times before so despite the bad weather would there be get there itis plus complacency involved? |
It goes without saying that the PIC should possess the skills and judgement to make the go/no go or abort decision based on weather reports and analysis but I sometimes think that if the realtime tools like subscription free NEXRAD weather that can be received in flight with a cheap GPS receiver and displayed on a tablet in the US were available in Europe we would avoid some of the tragedies like this. Reading the met reports before the flight is all fine and dandy but when in flight and you look at the screen and see your wee aircraft heading straight for a red area with yellow then green borders it really catches your attention.
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