Sp25, wouldn't that depend on the cockpit gradient?

SP25 - I reference this because it gives a clear picture of the crash site:-

Was helicopter in Norfolk crash that killed Lord Ballyedmond safe? | Mail Online

Now not being funny but that suggests to me that it was shunted within a few hundred metres of lifting. So did the weather really change that much??

To be honest its irrelevant because we have what we have.

The bigger point is that it is clear the CAA needs to get involved to better protect commercial pilots from the pressure to fly when it is marginal and to look at what flying is done into and out of private sites.

I don't believe it was a commercial flight.

The BBC are reporting that he wanted a refund for the helicopter from AW because of a list of technical malfunctions. Was in court this week?????

Something like G-EMAU at Welford ?

Technical issues.
 

So why was he still using it if he thought there were technical issues?
I hope the media don't try and blame this on technical issues with the aircraft like they tried to blame the Bournemouth 109 on sabotage.
The industry is having a bad enough time as it is.

I don't think the reply was about whether the flight was on an AOC or a "private" flight.

My reading of the comment was that it was aimed at the pressures placed on any captain (whether rotary or fixed wing) in a small-fleet operation.

Often job security is non-existent, because if you do not comply with commercial demands, the beneficial owner will find another more compliant captain.

I have no idea whether this was the case here, but I hold my hand up and say that I am guilty of taking unreasonable risks to keep my own (fixed-wing) job because there is so little work out there at the moment.

Ok so I have only been flying corporate for the last nine years and have had on occasion pressure to fly in bad weather and said no , and never had any problems there after . As the pilot in command you have a legal responsibility for the safety and well being of the passengers and crew even if one of them is you're boss !

If one of my employers decided they no longer wanted my services that's fine but if I was dropped over a single incidence where I would not fly due weather then I would have grounds to take legal action. What might be helpful is a standard employment contract from the caa for freelances to use when working in the corporate environment to clearly state to the employer who has final say with wether to fly or not .

CBS

I agree CBSW but the huge expense and risk of taking legal action against an enormously wealthy and powerful employer, and the tiny compensation that is payable if you do happen to win, do not guarantee finding another job afterwards!

Fair one CBS. The pressures must be higher for Captains if they know that if they get fired, they would have to pay the training agreement (bond) back to Haughey Air as I believe many have done previously.

BeeTee - again no idea if this was the contractual situation here, but it is becoming common in FW private flying too that captain has to "tender for bids" to "provide flying services", through his own one-man "company", thereby giving the beneficial owner (usually through another offshore holding company) to terminate services on any pretext. It is a convenient arrangement that absolves the wealthy from paying health insurance, social security, pensions or any of the other expenses involved in employing a professional pilot.

It's been the case for many years that pilot jobs are hard to come by, it's natural that once you've got one you want to hang on to it, and saying no, either to the client or boss certainly isn't easy.
If an employer has a reputation for not holding onto pilots due to Ts & Cs, it would seem logical that after a while the stream of experienced and rated people who will say no will dry up and there's a danger you'll get what your asking for....people around you who are frightened to say no. Not saying that is the case here, in fact this wealthy owner, unlike many, invested in the latest aircraft and had 2 pilot crewing.

Developing: AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
 

...And was looking for a new pilot every six month...

Art of flight .

I completely agree with you there is always someone who will fly the machines no ones else will or take the risk others don't but then what is the answer ? Just except the fact that every year a certain number of people will be killed in circumstances that the rest of us say we would never get into .

Personally I would like to see the currency requirements made much more stringent drop the 90 day rule and bring in a 30 day rule for night and imc, force owners to allow their pilots regular opportunities to practice important skills .

Also be open minded to new technology such as IR cameras and synthetic vision anything that might allow a pilot to " see " where they are going

CBS

It would be interesting to know what was the departure time filled on the GAR Report against the actual take off time,

CBS, this machine was equipped with LLTV/Thermal imaging. You can see the camera mounted on the belly under the pilots seat.
Was it on or not? Who knows. You'll have to wait for the FDR readout.

Aviation experts
 

I heard some good comments on pilot pressure, to " get the job done" there were also some comments that were less than useful.
I knew both pilots well. They were professional and committed to their job.
Risk management is the priority. Pilot skill is important, but less of an issue these days, although currency is key, to managing a complex aircraft.
These guys were current and skillful, in their operation.
I'm gutted and deeply upset of our, and their loved ones loss.
That is the priority now. Not speculating, using our so called "aviation expertise"
God bless you Carl and Lee.
It was a privilege knowing you.
God Bless.
Andy.

From the Guardian

https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys...AW139--014.jpg

Some prosecutions of operators/pilots doing VFR in blatant IMC might help.

I thought the 139 could shoot a 6 degree approach to any spot in space and come to a perfect hover without coming on the control. True or false? The EC145 can do this right?

Sad as this crash is, I feel not more than a little annoyed that some are suggesting yet more regulation within the industry. With respect to weather minima, the rules are already in place.
Whilst weather is likely to be a significant factor in this crash, it hasn't yet been proven to be the case.

I'm surprised only one person seems to have picked up on the 'undamaged' tail rotor. It looks to me like the main rotor was probably under power at the time of impact and although the impact appears to be nose first, the tail rotor seems to have touched the ground and I'm surprised it appears to be unscathed. It's not as though the AW139 doesn't have a history of T/R problems.

Please, no more calls for more regulation - let's stick to, and if necessary, enforce the rules that are already in place.

JJ

Cabby;


That site was lit, and I'm not aware of anyone daft enough to use un-lit sites these days.


I heard the Vine show, one bloke claimed to be an aviation analyst, he was ex-Beccles cabin crew and rattled on about instrument lag and all sorts of stuff he got from books, but the real treasure was Tommy Abdy-Collins, long retired, who decided to shoot his stupid mouth off about how pro helicopter pilots fly to Cheltenham for the festival under power lines to avoid the weather. He then regaled the listeners with stories of what cowboys we all are. WELL DONE TOMMY! YOU UTTER C***. Next time you decide to traduce my colleagues and me like this I'm going to stamp on your face you ignorant t***.


SND

Vine
 

I heard that piece too - what a complete oxygen thief! Made me embarrassed to be ex-AAC. One of the local press websites describes a large tree with the top 25ft newly broken off near by. Whatever the cause, two fewer fellow aviators are mourned by us all. There but for the grace...

JJ, well said.

I can no longer bear to listen to Jeremy Vine's programme. His whining, sensation seeking, apologist claptrap and the banshee wailing of his extremist, often Harpie like phone in contributors drives me to distraction. The programme has become the radio equivalent of the worst tabloid newspapers. Bring back Jimmy Young!

For a Panorama presenter the bloke seems incredibly thick.I remember him discussing someone with an IQ of 160 "Is that high,doesn't IQ go up to 1000?"
He played the record Abraham,Martin and John. "Oh someone just told me that's about Martin Luther King,I never knew that"

Jellycopter

I think it's a bit of a stretch to start assuming TR problems from the photograph. The nose-down impact and rapid rotor deceleration that would produce that sort of destruction, would probably result in a pretty low TR rpm by the time it, the TR, touched (admittedly all measured in less than seconds)

Time will tell.

Anyone expecting to gain valuable knowledge of private helicopter operations from the Jeremy Vine show will get what they deserve. If you've done this sort of work, you'll know the pressures these 2 guys were under, you'll know that the CAA can legislate till the cows come home, but we would still try to interpret those rules to get the job done. You'd need an ops inspector to wave you off at every site to enforce any rules. It all comes down to being able to make that one decision, can you say no when the red faced boss is giving you the hairdryer treatment on the night? I suggest if you know that your relationship with your employer is otherwise, you're in the wrong industry. I have driven home in the past, expecting a job debrief from the boss next day after saying no, due to weather, and it never happened. I've flown military, police and corporate and in my opinion corporate/private is living on your wits with little or no back-up, it really takes a strong character to last in that industry.

Captain Lee Hoyle, Pilot in Norfolk helicopter crash tragedy was an ex-soldier from Greater Manchester - Manchester Evening News

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/ne...rash-1-6500699

No, the 145 has a 3-axis AP.
However the new 145T2, not already in service, will have a 4-axis AP.

skadi

In the published aerial video it seems that the first contact was in the vicinity of the line of straw bales ( parts of the wreck ), then a heavy impact in the freshly ploughed field ( crater ) and finally the wreck came to rest in opposite direction.

skadi

Re the 139 auto approach
 

The 139 does have a 4 axis AFCS and can fly a very accurate approach to the hove and even do a go around when initiated. However it does need to be set up correctly including defined parameters and location etc. In this case, from what I can surmise, I think that the accident has happened in the early stages of flight and that the approach mode will not have been set up. Of course, it only works well when everything is working correctly.

Regarding the possibility of some sort of power loss, the 139 has excellent OEI performance but it does depend upon what is around you in the form of obstructions.

There are a number of possibilities as to the cause and the AIB will in due course come up with an answer. Speculation, "eye witnesses" and armchair "experts (spotters)" do very little to help the situation apart from spread bad rumour.

In my opinion JV is the radio equivalent of gutter press, he will always take a contrary argument and interview so called "experts" to get a bit of a sensationalist view on a subject. I stopped listening to him a long time ago as he never seemed to give an unbiased outlook on a subject.

God speed to the four who sadly passed away in this tragedy. My thoughts are with their families.

Other media reports/photos indicate that the first contact might have been with the trees that are closer to the road.

Ok, that was not mentioned in the video. My assumtions were that the contact with the straw bales made the helicopter to flip over during a flare or so. This could explain the obviously heavy nose down impact.

Here in the second picture theres one straw bale, which was turned over and some parts of the wreck in front of.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....orfolk-6835790

skadi

Art of Flight is exactly right when he said "corporate/private is living on your wits with little or no back-up, it really takes a strong character to last in that industry."


I would not recommend this work to any pilot who is "professional" in his approach to flying, standards of airmanship will be compromised many times by commercial pressure and/or owners who are used to getting their own way and want to get there like NOW. I had several head to heads with more than one owner ..... e.g. why can't you land in fog? .... why won't you fly in cloud (in a 206L) so and so does, you are an amateur pilot .... why won't you land there, the last pilot did .... and I had more than one narrow escape in fog and low cloud when I was tasked by my company (an AOC holder) to fly as P2 in a company maintained private helicopter but with the owner's own P1. I am of the opinion that that pilot survived more through luck than skill and judgement, but he had to get the job done to please his boss and keep his extremely well paid job. My company's chief pilot had that same frame of mind when the company chairman wanted to fly, or when another private owner's aircraft operated by the company overloaded the number of passengers in his aircraft. When the question of safety was raised the answer was that the company could not criticize the owner or his pilot because otherwise they might lose the maintenance and/or pilot contracts.


I retired many years ago and in those days the CAA weren't interested in "private" helicopter operations, even when they were flown by crews employed by a company holding an AOC. I hope things have changed by now.


My advice, if you are a professional, is fly with a big company, at least you will then have the support of proper rules and, more importantly, the support of other pilots with a professional attitude to their work. In a small company pilots are afraid of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line.


My heartfelt sympathies for the crew of G-LBAL and their relatives.

So will the 4 axis AFCS also allow a vertical take off profile with CATA performance and continue with a positive ROC with OEI with no visual references?

76 Fan, ArtofFlight;


Well said, Under the new EASA rules a corporate ops manual is a requirement which may give some protection, also under the new rules helicopters which are on AOC's will be required to operate to AOC standards at all times. Those two should give coronaries to some of the private owners who use the AOC system to play the taxman.


I'm ugly enough to tell it like it is, I used to use "I'm not paid enough to die for you" that changed to "I'm the only me I've got and my family would like me back tonight." Nowadays its "you listen to your lawyers, bankers and accountants, well I'm the same as them, but my advice is based on keeping you alive."


I've twice seen signs in helicopter cockpits and several times had owners say "You're the expert, I'm not offended by the word no." I do make it very clear to owners/customers that when I say no, I will have looked at every option, and no means there is no safe way to carry out the flight. I've rarely seen a problem after adopting a direct approach, and when I have I've been relieved to walk away.


SND

Well, S76Fan, I'm certainly not afraid of losing mine!
I might lose my job, but I'm certainly not afraid of doing so. I walked from my last job because I was no longer prepared to deal with stupidity by passengers who thought they knew more about flying than than a pilot of over thirty years of professional experience.

However, I am afraid of losing my life, or at least my licence, if I don't do what I know is safe!

SND, too right!

The eye witness and aerial video below tend to indicate that as well

Latest Anglia News - ITV News

Go down to about the third video titled "Bodies removed"

I worked for Haughy for a VERY short time and walked out due to ureasonable and dangerous pressure- I am one of very many both rotary and fixed wing!!

Not as such, however depending on software (not sure what this particular machine has) the afcs - with good knowledge of the system - can be effectively used to conduct a vertical profile takeoff and transition to forward flight.

A few ways to skin the cat however, a vertical profile can be achieved with or without HOV (HOV - trim the height up) and once at an appropriate height TU (transition up) can be used to get into forward flight - it will default to 80 KIAS/200ft RADALT however these parameters can be easily adjusted - ie 1500 ft etc..once there, other modes can be used....depends also on the terrain etc. So far as OEI flyaway in these configuartions, like any helicopter depends on AUW etc etc?

Cheers