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-   -   Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/528850-police-helicopter-crashes-onto-glasgow-pub.html)

dunnarunna 30th Nov 2013 13:34

135 originally certified at 2720kg thus exempt from FDR despite mtow increasing with newer variants. Same for the A109.

Fortyodd2 30th Nov 2013 13:36

Bondu,
Google Official Record Series 4 on the CAA Website and check out numbers 988 & 989.

Those truly in the know....................know.

bondu 30th Nov 2013 13:48

Forty odd,

Just done as you suggested.
I defer to your superior knowledge! As an AS332L/EC225 driver, I've had a FDR/CVR for many years. I haven't flown the 135, so my apologies.
However, a question then. Should helicopters operating for police and EMS agencies have FDRs/CVRs?

Technet101 30th Nov 2013 13:53

In my opinion all service aircraft should have FDRs fitted as they work in built up and city enviroments usually at low altitude.

huntnhound 30th Nov 2013 14:06

It is absolutely right that the AAIB will carry out a full investigation into this terrible event, and it is further likely that such an investigation will take some considerable time. Only then we will know exactly what happened. Five minute speculators on this forum are only as useless as those in the media that "report".
I would like to extend my sympathies to my former colleagues.

AvNews 30th Nov 2013 15:01

Wiki page now up and running.

2013 Glasgow helicopter crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Sultan 30th Nov 2013 15:02

Bondu,

Bell built in a data recorder into each of the displays on the 429. As long as all displays do not burn (unlikely on a Bell) the data is recoverable. The data mapped is equivalent to ED-112 type recorders used on the big boys, except at a slower rate of one sample every 1/2 second. The 429 also has a fully compliant ED-112 data bus with data up to 8 times a second which feeds an optional modern CV/FDR.

RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike 30th Nov 2013 15:03


Originally Posted by TeetPongPlug (Post 8180879)
Speculatdion is clearly the way forward, after all Im told its a rumour network, so dignity and respect can be put to one side in the name of speculation.

Why do you think we have to put "dignity and respect" to one side if we speculate ? It's possible to do so in a perfectly dignified manner. There has already been some illuminating comments from informed folks (e.g. skadi, Fortyodd2 and others) which has contributed to shared knowledge.

If you don't want to benefit from this enlightenment, or think that you might see something you don't like, then feel free to *not* browse to this page. However, telling the rest of us, who do wish to benefit from informed speculation, that we're not allowed to because *you* don't want to read it, isn't really on... :hmm:

22 Degree Halo 30th Nov 2013 15:03

8 dead, 14 serious :(

HeliEng 30th Nov 2013 15:04

BBC have just confirmed 3 bodies found within the helicopter... :-(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25165894

tacr2man 30th Nov 2013 15:06

"Be careful not to criticise anyone for speculating, as the moderator seems to be handy at snipping out folk who suggest its not good practice....


Speculation is clearly the way forward, after all Im told its a rumour network, so dignity and respect can be put to one side in the name of speculation.


Wonder how long this post lasts then ?"

You seem to have a vast depth of knowledge about the practices an this forum for someone with 6 posts :rolleyes:

bondu 30th Nov 2013 15:27

Sultan,

Thanks for info on The 429.

I understand that some 135s do have FDRs fitted - the newer model P2+ has the AR Combi 204C fitted and some T2s have something called a CPDS fitted, which collect some data streams and has a recording facility.

It looks as though last nights machine may not have either system fitted, but we should wait for the AAIB to confirm that.

Fortyodd2 30th Nov 2013 15:42

Bondu,
CPDS = Central Panel Display System - comprising a VEMD, (Vehicle Engine Monitoring Display), and a CAD, (Caution Advisory Display).

Can I also thank John Gleeson for injecting some much needed first hand knowledge into Sky News instead of the their usual armchair expert guesswork.

Spanish Waltzer 30th Nov 2013 15:55

Very sad day for all affected.

Have other 135s been grounded?

Not speculating, just asking.

CharlieOneSix 30th Nov 2013 16:12

Do Police helicopters downlink video/sound at all times to their control room or do they only do that when on a tasking? Just thinking there could possibly be a lot of useful information to the AAIB there.

AvNews 30th Nov 2013 16:13


Aviation expert David Learmount said the aircraft was a "very sophisticated" twin-engine helicopter which could have flown with one working engine.

"If the pilot had had any control at all he would've aimed it away from a building," he said.

"The fact that he was not able to aim it away from the building tells us a great deal."

He said even if both engines had failed, the helicopter would have been able to glide, using a method called "auto-rotation".

"This helicopter was unable to do that because it came down much faster than it would've done had the pilot been able to glide it," he said,

"So something happened. Something happened very suddenly and then the pilot either had no control at all or had very little control."
BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: What do we know about the aircraft?

HS125 30th Nov 2013 16:29


Do Police helicopters downlink video/sound at all times to their control room or do they only do that when on a tasking? Just thinking there could possibly be a lot of useful information to the AAIB there.
My dad was a Deputy Chief Fire Officer; I remember him reviewing footage of a school fire from Cheshire's Islander (G-PASV) and remarking how it would have made it possible to save the building - The police got an amazing amount of funding compared with the Fire Service; I can't imagine them not downlinking information almost 20 years later.

If I recall correctly, the MD900 and 902 had a port on the engine/transmission displays form which it was possible to recover an amazing amount of information?! Not an FDR per-se but a very very useful tool. It's been so long I can't remember what it's called but I miss that aircraft daily!!

DIBO 30th Nov 2013 16:36


it came down much faster than it would've done had the pilot been able to glide it
from witness reports inside the pub, it seems to have been a 2 stage event, with the heli ending up the roof with more control than just gravity, followed shortly after by the wooden roof collapsing under the weight. So providing these witness reports are factual, some level of auto-rotation control was still possible. Pure gravity would have smashed right through the ceiling.

Armchair_Ace 30th Nov 2013 17:12

Patronising, sarcastic, condescending & downright rude
 
staplefordheli,:rolleyes: Rolling eyes at an eye-witness report. Were you there?
All: This is a public forum and non-flyers are just as entitled to comment as much as some of the "expert-never put a foot wrong- know-it-all" pilots on here. There are some extremely well written comments on this site that are a pleasure to read & then there are the patronising, sarcastic, condescending & downright rude smart-a55es who, quite frankly, just show themselves up.

zorab64 30th Nov 2013 17:16

Condolences & discussion
 
As someone who's expecting to fly one of these, in this role, tomorrow, I remain confident that this airframe is one of the best for this task, if flown & maintained properly, unless your luck really has run out . . . which has happened in the past. Valid speculation can be valuable for those who may feel nervous about getting back in the saddle, and there are a number of pointers from eye-witnesses, and the photos, which should help to reassure others - the following are nothing else but observations, with a little speculation at the end:

1. Photos show the better part of two whole MR blades, and a smaller end of one other, intact over some length. The two protruding blades appear close to, but less than, 90deg apart. Having seen photos of a 135 that rolled over under power some years ago, the carbon fibre blade spars shred themselves completely.

2. The fenestron appears mostly intact, if twisted, and in conjunction with MRBs would seem to show a roll to the left to inverted after/during landing - certainly IF the reports of a landing, followed by a roof collapse, are accurate,

3. One might expect an aircraft with a complete power loss and "stopped" rotors (as some have reported) to hit the roof so hard as to go straight through, but might also expect the impact to create a lot more distortion of the lighter parts, & tail boom specifically.

4. If reports of stopped rotors were accurate, it could be argued that the deadweight of the airframe, and the C of G with heavy transmission on top might have started to turn the aircraft inverted before impact?

5. A number of consecutive TR blades appear to be in place - the photo isn't taken at an angle to allow a view of the rest.

6. Whilst UK Police 135's are not required to be, & aren't, fitted with a CVR, some historical data is downloadable from the FADECs, so AAIB may at least be able to find out what the engines were doing in the later moments of flight.

Personal opinion only, is that it might appear there was some control which reduced the rate of descent before impact, hence the relatively minor distortion of the rear empenage, and the reports of an impact, with time for people in the pub to comment about the band, followed by the roof caving in. Of course there is no indication, apart from the tragic result recently announced, of the state of the main body of the aircraft, which has had a good track-record in other, fairly high impact, EC135 accidents. The lack of any reported emergency by the pilot might speak more volumes than anything else, certainly so close to base. That worst case scenario of something sudden, as intimated by David Learmount, may have to be considered.

It a very sad day when an event such as this occurs, tragic for those who fly these machines (who are aware of the risks but train hard to mitigate them) and doubly so for the innocent Friday night public who we spend our time assisting & protecting. All sympathies & prayers are with those affected.

At the end of the day, however, the AAIB are world-respected experts in their field and will get to the bottom of what happened, with the willing assistance of the manufacturers. The reason aviation, in almost every area, is as safe as it is today is because we listen, read & learn about these terrible events which understandably, but sadly, make more headlines than the road fatalities that spoil so many more lives. Any failing of the aircraft will surely be addressed as quickly as possible, as has happened in the past, and we'll learn and adjust the way we operate. The 135 remains a state of the art machine IMHO, which has looked after me and my team very satisfactorily for many years. As I don't like complacency, however, I always keep a useful phrase in the back of my mind, from my early training:

"Aviation itself is not inherently dangerous but, to an even greater capacity than the sea, is very unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."


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