Crab , I can only assume you are fully conversant with the current amendment to the S92A operations manual having the type on your E.A.S.A. A.T.P.L.

Jim, I can only use my two tours at Lossie as experience but I can't remember a situation where it would have been quicker to go over the top and rely on an unknown let down at the other end. As for letting down in the Moray Firth, it isn't as straight forward as you may think near the Beauly Firth end. With the correct low level skills (SAR basics) and goggles, a relatively fast transit can be made even in quite poor conditions. I'm not saying that a high level transit will never be used but it still won't be the best way on most occasions even with new technology. Before you ask, I have flown new technology in icing and snow without the pressure of a dying casualty and I know where I would rather be. Of course this relies on getting enough practice at low level and with goggles - Crab has done that one to death! I'm sure they will be fine with all the experience they have in place.

Whether people like it or not, or are willing to admit it, there has already been a subtle shift in ethos of UK SAR Operations by the commercial operators. The military call it mission creep. In the past the priority was to get the casualty to a hospital, usually by utilising one equipped with an HLS. Already, we are seeing Bristow crews more frequently electing to drop the casualty at an airport for onward transfer via ambulance. This is a perfectly acceptable solution where injuries are not time critical and mitigates the issues of single-engine performance in urban HLSs. It may even be a quicker option than a low level grovel in marginal weather where the modern aircraft are equipped for a fast, IFR transit potentially in icing conditions (stand-fast AW189 clearance), assuming there is a slick ambulance transfer. The problem comes when there isn't a convenient airport and the weather or HLS isn't compatible with the best hospital option.

The numbers were expertly crunched to justify the 10-base solution. If senior members of the DfT had seen the map I saw recently which dramatically visualised the rescues carried out round the UK in recent years they would be very nervous about coverage down the east coast. Stats can be very forgiving when trying to justify a solution which saves money. I guarantee the press/public won't be as forgiving if and when said compromise gets exposed.

llamaman - excellent post - the quote 'lies, damn lies and statistics' was never more apposite than when looking at the way the 10 -base solution was 'justified' - sadly, some of that work was done by my own colleagues!

Pitch horn - I don't have to be S-92 qualified to know SAROPS - perhaps 14 years as Sqn trg Off, CFS agent and part-time Stds isn't enough for you.

Jim. the paranoia that exists within MCA and Bristow regarding social media and this contract means that no-one would talk to me unless it was off the record - obviously no-one has done so:ok:

Pitch horn

Seeing as you probably are, perhaps you could confirm or deny that the icing clearance is based on the absence of large super-cooled droplets. How do you check that this is the case?

VSF
 

The point I am making is that there are people on this thread pontificating about an aircraft and its limitations ( as dictated in the Ops manual ) that they have absolutely no experience on.

Crab - your cv is small beer compared to many involved in SAR. I'm not just referring to the U.K. but globally.

Well Same Again must know the answer. Will he tell us?

I could perhaps look it up but don't have the time or the inclination. I am just a pilot. Freezing conditions are freezing conditions and, having been well scared one dark, stormy, winter night, I will stay well clear of the combination whenever possible. Especially if there is no quick and easy exit.

If you have a beef about the policies of UK SAR, MCA and Bristow then take it up with them or, better still, your local MP - not the crews who are trying to do their best.

I don't think anyone is beefing with the crews - just questioning headline statements about capabilities that may be exaggerated or spun to deflect any criticism for not fulfilling the terms of the contract from the start.

Pitch Horn - globally, very certainly but UKSAR, maybe not so small beer - it's irrelevant since the point was that I don't have to be S-92 qualified to understand icing limitations and SAROPs.

So you don't know or want to know the limitations of your own aircraft.

You previously mentioned meriting all that money you earnt. Hmmm.

I know all the limitations of the aircraft that I fly. As far as airframe icing limitations are concerned my own limitations would be exceeded well before - and will not be. Just off out to spend some of that money. Bye.

Well, clearly not all the limitations. However, thank you for proving so many points in just one small post.

This is starting to sound like some Cat checks I have conducted - a question is asked by the examiner, a bold but vague answer is given by the examinee, some probing of understanding is undertaken and then evasion, obfuscation and deception ensues as the examinee tries to cover up the fact he doesn't know the subject.;)

Well I seem to have passed all my tests Crab. I'm still flying SAR and enjoying it very much thank you. How's life with you?

Nice to see it all getting personal thanks to the brave screen of anonymity that Pprune offers. I'd love to see you guys attempting to have a similar conversation face-to-face in a bar (that's where actual people meet and chat whilst looking each other in the eye). I don't fancy your chances Same Again, even if you are a very wealthy and knowledgeable SAR pilot.

very good thanks - still flying but without getting dragged out of bed at 2 am for a 3-hour pointless search in shi*e weather;)

Did my time, enjoyed it and moved on:ok:

If you say so :zzz:

I meant I had moved on from flying SAR not moved on from caring about it.

I believe that anyone privileged enough to be involved in UKSAR should care deeply about its quality of service and not just treat it like any other job where the paycheck is all that matters.

To be fair, you didn't have much choice...:ok:

Not so - I could have stayed in to the very end which would have coincided with my normal end of military service.

If small-minded individuals want to claim a victory from excluding a very experienced SAR operator and QHI from the new service for voicing an opinion then let them crack on - it doesn't say much for the quality of the individuals concerned.

On 16 Sep, Ian Corrigible pointed us to a Flight Global report, which included this about the 189 which makes it a bit strange that Agusta Westland have only now, 12 days later, released the news formally.
Find the rest of it atAW189 LIPS Certification - DETAIL - AgustaWestland

airsound

From the article OH, err just like the Sea King then...

and Ohh errr just like the Sea King again with the exception of the SLD marker (whatever that is)

with the exception of the CAT A - it just sounds like another rehash of existing capability


Oh and I don't believe the 139, which will be doing the 189's job this winter, has even this capability.............

Perhaps AW could lend the Supercooled Larger Droplet marker to the S92 flights. It sounds like they could do with one.

Correct unless it has the extra kit.

SLD icing detector
 

Several patents filed:
Rosemount Aerospace has 2:
patent 1
patent 2
And edited: Agusta's own patent
Agusta
SLB

Do the SAR 139 s on the new contract have that extra kit and, if so, what is the kit and what does it comprise? Is it as good as the RIPS on the S92?

Presumably the SLD icing detector simply says 'vacate the icing environment' if it detects the presence of SLDs? You can usually see the formation of clear ice on parts of the airframe (aerials, wipers, ice accretion probe) it doesn't give any protection, just detection.

Chivenor
 

According to the local news Chivenor is continuing on state due to a delay in the contract.

Before certification of the LIPS the AW189 had an all weather capability. Now, with LIPS, its all weather capability is enhanced. Does that mean it can now fly in more weathers than the atmosphere can produce?

They should be on state tonight and handover tomorrow but that was last week's plan.

If the new service wasn't standing up at St Athan in time there was supposed to be a 2-week notice given as I was given to understand not a last minute plan B.

North Devon Journal reporting at 8:25 a 7-day delay in handover!

So.......... A 7 day delay.

What can I say........... Nimrod AEW3.........Nimrod MRA 4 :ugh: still waiting....

Typical Lib Dem forgetting history again.

Get a grip.

Sorry to be so very far behind the drag curve, but is it REALLY true that there are no longer any free-swimming divers left in the UK SAR world?

Am I alone in thinking that this is an insidious travesty?

Insidious Travesty would be a good subtitle for the subject matter of this thread.

P3 Bellows

Do the words 'Reputational Damage' mean anything to you?

Indeed. I think the AEW3 was probably a bigger delay and cock up than the MRA4.

Top marks for irrelevance.

Crab - sorry, I must be missing the point, but your story seems at odds with itself - glad you had a good party though - hmm, could be why today's typing not entirely cogent!

yes, one of the reasons I removed the post later:)

My point was that the delay in taking over from Chiv was due, it appears, to petty politics and not through any lack of effort or ability (quite the opposite) from the team at St Athan.

No doubt the truth will out in the end.

A week. Who cares. Tiny stuff in the big picture. Useful for lazy MPs and Councillors to get a few column inches though.


More importantly, what news of Boulmer?

Crab,
You know the truth.
Please tell us all as it may shut the ex north Devon councillor up.

So, how was the party?

The party was excellent, a stunning location with perfect weather and an awesome flying display by Aerosparx! Who would have thought that night, close formation in motorgliders covered in LEDs and punching out pyros and smoke would ever get sanctioned.

As for the truth - I don't know what went on in the corridors of power but I do know that St Athan had dug out blind to achieve operational readiness in just a month after receiving the aircraft. There was some rumour about numbers of pilots but the RAF SAR flights have operated on the bare minimum many times due to illness, OOAs and FI dets without compromising safety or capability so it really doesn't sound like a level playing field.

To be honest, it sounds like a last minute knee-jerk reaction from someone in the chain - RAF, MCA, DfT - with little real reason.

Blaming the delay on Bristow is not fair or justified.