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SA 315B Lama
Does anyone have any info on how many Lamas are left flying and which countries remain the biggest operators, is it still Switzerland and Italy?
Are there any plans to keep them going? |
Hello AE,
24 used by 7 operators in Switzerland, Heli Glaciers is the biggest with 12 Lamas. . |
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In Italy there are still quite a few Lamas but they are gradually getting phased out.
The internet page posted here by zishelix does not give the correct info about lamas flying in Italy. There are many more companies than just Airgreen. Just of the top of my head I can name 3 companies that operate lamas on Italy Airstar, Elimast, Elifly and others |
Pellissier Helicopters in Aosta just recently added one to their fleet. And there is one based in NZ up north being used for ag work. Haven't seen many here in the USA though.
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The internet page posted here by zishelix does not give the correct info about lamas flying in Italy. You are correct. There are around 46 Lamas/Alouette II's registered in Italy (less than there used to be) of which I think about 18 are currently flying. I stand to be corrected. Currently registered Lamas and Alouette II's in Italy: I-AFET I-AMAY I-APEX I-ASIO I-BLIM (Alouette II) I-BXWB I-BXWD I-BXWE I-BXWF I-COOP I-CTEC I-CUDP (Alouette II) I-DEBS (Alouette II) I-DOCG (Alouette II) I-EFLY I-ETIK I-FLAC (Alouette II) I-FLAR I-FLAX I-FVBD I-FVPD I-GREN I-ICGR I-IRPI I-ISAF I-MAEL I-MERC I-MICU I-MROS I-MURE I-NKAS I-OLEY I-PAAD (Alouette II) I-PAFA (Alouette II) I-PATI I-PCET (Alouette II) I-PITO I-PLLY (Alouette II) I-PRVV I-SERY I-SESI (Alouette II) I-SOCO I-SOFI I-SOND I-SWSA (Alouette II) I-VIOL |
In early-2010 Eurocopter announced that the Lama and the Alouette III will be supported until the end of the decade.. 2020 that is. The type certificate is said to be revoked that year. They showed some graphs with the active Lamas throughout the world, but I don't remember the numbers though..
We have one here in Sweden, as well as two Alouette IIIs. |
Part 147(B1.3) Lama Training
Am delighted to see fellow Ppruners who love this aircraft as much as I do :)
For info. I have a JV arrangement with a fully CAA/EASA approved Part 147 Company for the B1.3 course, which we completed before Christmas 2012 at the request of a company in Asia. They had approached EC for a training course, but were told no such animal exists any more, :uhoh: so we spent a great deal of time putting the course together, and gaining full approval for it from all the interested Regulatory Authorities If anyone is interested please pm for more details. (Mods - I apologise if this may be considered 'advertising' but it isn't intended that way, just there may be some organisations out there who could use a course and there aren't currently any available than ours - unless some one else knows differently, of course). In my book it is still a unique and wonderful aircraft :D Best to all - VFR |
If this was only about Lamas in civil aviation this info is pretty accurate.However, if you include Lamas and Alouettes in military service then no list would be complete without naming India.The Armed Forces of that country have more than a few hundred of both types, with the indian Army fielding the lion's share of Lamas because of their high altitude needs.Of course, they are license manufactured under Indian names (Cheetah and Chetak respectively) by Hindustan Areonautics Limited.Last I read, the country was looking for a suitable replacement for both types and for all three services as well as their pretty substantial para military arms.But,given their slow and bureaucratic acquisition process, it will be well past the end of this decade before the stalwarts of the Aerospatiale stable are put to pasture.
Alt3. |
I appologize, seems I pointed out you on the part of the website which is not updated yet :O Please find a better (and more accurate ;)) overview here Zenfolio | Pierre GILLARD | Alouette & Lama ... or check out individual A&L histories my friend and the website owner trying to complete day after day Alouette & Lama :D
Btw, he intend to became a PPRuNer later, too busy to join us now ;) |
VFR440 where's the course being held?
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VFR: Well done on this initiative. Bravo! :D
I wish you every success. Given the fact that I was weaned on executive aircraft, some may be surprised to learn that the Lama is in fact one of my all time favourite helicopters. For while she looks as though she may have been designed by Frank Hornby, and though she shakes like a drunk in withdrawal, and despite the poor leg room of her rear-seat passengers, and even though she can't accommodate their baggage, yet .. for her size, her performance is dazzling .. and who, pray tell, can resist the exquisite shrill of her ancient Artouste as it leaps into life - a call to flight for anyone within a kilometre of her frame! And all this talk of Lamas reminds of a little poem I once read, composed by a boy who had once watched live Lamas working in the Italian Alps. Lama dear lama, rugged and rare, built with conviction, a strong sturdy mare. Who can compare, with your perspex and tin, for even you fly, while lacking a fin! Even the Dalai, who shares in your name, could never deny, supporting your gain. Your framework and wires, might others repel, but for me you shall always be my dear belle. Fly high lovely lama, breathing thin air, for there you belong, for those who will dare. |
One of my favorite :
(Pyrénées France) Une journée avec PAGES Hélicoptères - Helico-Fascination http://nsa32.casimages.com/img/2013/...0532254897.jpg |
Bellissima! :ok:
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Skydance in the US use Lama's to support seismic drills. they look like fantastic longline platforms.
i've never been in one but i'd like to try one out! |
Hi.
EASA regulation does not mandate a theoretical training to add type rating to the AML. As Lama is a single engined helicopter, demonstration of experience plus examination is enough. It's very difficult to find someone wishing to afford type training plus practical element costs to add a single engine to the license. |
Two great videos of the surprisingly nimble Lama. I could watch this first video a hundred times and never get bored.
500 Fan. |
Hey, Cleared Hot, what's your game???? you're in LA and you know that Pellisier helicopter in italy added a Lama to their fleet and some other guys in New Zealand are using Lamas. Are you spying on us all!!!!!!!!:)
Lama fans: check out these videos!:) Ciao Savoia, Saluti dal Lago di Como! |
Lamas and engineering training
Piggybank - Course location would normally be at your maintenance base. We have duly approved facilities in UK near Oxford, but the rub is we must have an aircraft (close) which we can visit and identify all the parts discussed during the theoretical training. Unfortunately there are no longer any Lamas G-registered, or, AFAIK, based in UK. That's the only stumbling block. CAA have been hard work but accept remote site approval with procedure/checklist highlighted in the MTOE. We have a portfolio of courses and have completed training in Asia, Middle East and Africa on this basis.
Soloviev - I am sure your statement is/may be correct in your country.One of the VERY tedious aspects of Part 147 is that EASA have devolved admin of the approvals to the local NAA, thus the aspect you highlight is, unfortunately, not across-the-board. So far we have completed training in several European countries, to the EASA standard, and yet on completion there are always queries raised by the individual NAAs. It's extremely frustrating. (and leads to the consumption of huge quantities of Vino Rosso - Savoia would approve :ok:) More seriously we sought the wisdom of the CAA's Man-in-Charge on this point and Licensing and Training Standards were firm on the point (adamant in fact) that since the Eurocopter SA315B Lama/TM Artouste III has an EASA C of A, training standards would have to be to a Part 147 approval. ECF, as inherited TCH, don't do it any more, of course. And you are quite right, the practical element is not as involved as that prescribed for Twins and more complex helicopters, but a complete, not necessarily airworthy, aircraft with engine was a requirement to fulfil at least the intent of the practical element.Note that the pre-requisites for undertaking our approved course specifically includes prior experience, and thus the duration is just two weeks long; 1 each for A/F and engine, and the end result is a duly approved Part 66 certificate that is presented to the Regulatory authority, together with the prescribed fee to have the endorsement made as the type-rating upon your Part 66 AML We understand that your defined route of experience, worksheets and exam only applies to Annex 2 aircraft for which EASA has not validated a C of A, and thus National Rules apply (and this includes a National Licence; it is not legal to sign off an NAA aircraft with a Part 66 licence). As I say, it would be helpful if all members of the EASA 'club' were to sing from the same hymn sheet - not the case at present. S- mille grazie, we try (and we do pretty much only drink Italian wine - just huge quantities of it................:)) VFR |
In EASA rolling mill world, RIP friendly Lamas and Alouettes...:sad:
Now, composites, digital monitoring and plastic brains. Next, drones.... Pilots, the weak link, will become optional .... |
There's a lama ,allouette 316,and a allouette 319 based leeds uk, allouete318 based Kent uk ish, allouette 11 based hull
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Lamas in UK
MD, Thank you VERY much indeed for the info; could make a huge difference to courses in UK :ok:. My (limited) research was confined to the Midlands area looking for remnants from the old Dollar operation.
Pm me with the detail/people I should get in touch with? Many thanks and I owe you some Italian wine :O - VFR |
Some top responses and very interesting reading - thanks guys. :ok:
In early-2010 Eurocopter announced that the Lama and the Alouette III will be supported until the end of the decade.. 2020 that is. The type certificate is said to be revoked that year. In Tanzania Viking Helicopters had a Lama in about 1980 and Evergreen have had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter. There are a couple currently in the Congo and recently there was an Italian registered one in Kenya. Would like to know how much longer they will last. If you buy one now will it only be allowed to fly until 2020? |
vfr440, thanks for additional infos about your training schedule.
Regarding type training and type examination, please check GM.66.A.45 for Group 2 aircraft. That's all. Nobody stops you to complete a full type training but, as regulation alleviates the requirements for non complex machines, that's helping our job. Regulators amongst Europe are, as you say, unfortunately not aligned and it's always fair competition between operators that's made difficult. I've experience with Swiss UFAC, Italian ECAC, UK CAA amongst the others and the difference between them are quite evident. But, on my opinion, regulation is regulation and operators must fight to have it applied commonly. Regarding wine, let's have a taste of Franciacorta Brut then tell me something about. Ciao |
Training (and the occasional glass of wine)
Soloviev -
Now there's a good idea :ok: Absolutely understand and agree the GM and several other points you make. Next time we (all) in EASA gain a 'level playing-field' it will be a first :( This wasn't designed to be a treatise on EASA and NAAs, nor was it marketing either. Just that if faced with an intransigent Regulatory Authority, anywhere in the world, if the buzz words "Part 147 course" eases the passage to Certifying staff authorisation, we are only too pleased to help. And we are MILES cheaper than an OEM, since we have less overheads and we are "of" the industry (both principals are Part 66 LAEs and occasionally practising ones since it is less frustrating :uhoh:) BTW the Lama was an add-on to the current portfolio of all the EC and Bell singles and twins, together with the engines; it is not the lead-machine on our books though personally I wish it was (Lama people are rather special people - and they drink wine too, well most of them do) PM me for details if you are interested. African Eagle - in 2020. This may be an interesting scenario. Assuming that spares can be acquired prior to the cut-off date, without doubt the aircraft can be maintained to an airworthy standard BUT.......... if they no longer have someone underwriting the Type Certificate, I really suspect they would not be allowed to operate CAT. Private, yes, CAT no. What does anyone else think? They are NOT Public transport aircraft anyway (really), so maybe a concession could be given for Aerial Work as a category - at which they excel - but it is a good question, since what is decided by EASA may well have a domino effect throughout the global regulatory authorities. Look forward to any comments fielded, thank you in advance -VFR |
What will happen to Lama owners then? Here are some of the highlights that were presented by Eurocopter at the Alouette seminar on December 2nd, 2010: 60% of the Alouettes and 50% of the Lamas are without customer data inputs since more than 4 years, making it difficult for EC to forecast customer needs. Alouette II: 1326 aircraft produced until 1975 Alouette III: 1437 aircraft produced until 1985 Lama: 447 aircraft produced until 1985 I guess they are not including the license built helicopters? A number of issues leading to the retirement of the fleet, with one of the main reasons being loss of technical knowledge (EC & vendors), high effort to maintain erratic spares production & R&O capacities, obsolescence affecting majority of low rotation items. Another aspect is that the reindustrialization or redesign is getting more &and more complex:
Eurocopter says that the type certificate will be supported until the end of the decade, with the EC support scope reduced step by step. Degradation in the following order: Blades/Equipments, MRO, New Spares and untimately TC revocation. Alouette II will be retired prior to Lama/Alouette III (2018 vs. 2020). Fleet breakdown per end of 2009: Europe: 60 Alouette II, 200 Alouette III, 110 Lama America: < 100 aircraft Africa: < 100 aircraft Asia: < 200 aircraft Fleet leaders 2009: a/c type - s/n - status - last info date - flight hrs end 2009 - region SA 316 - 2351 - In service - 10/31/1988 - 29.100 - Europe SA 315 - 2322 - In service - 12/31/2000 - 26.900 - South Africa SA 316 - 1923 - In service - 03/31/1999 - 26.500 - Europe SA 315 - 0004 - In service - 08/31/2005 - 24.500 - Europe SA 3160 - 1667 - In service - 06/30/1997 - 23.200 - Asia SA 316 - 1762 - In service - 06/1/2002 - 22.000 - Europe SA 315 - 0006 - In service - 11/3/2009 - 21.700 - North America |
Torque and temp, thanks for this info. Sounds a bit sad.
I'm guessing a company could buy the type certificate from EC and maybe contract HAL to provide the support? Is that a possibility do you think? |
Is that a possibility do you think? |
Sounds a bit sad. Evergreen had had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter. Evergreen SA315B Lama N55963 (wearing sand filters) at Portland's Hillsboro Airport Haihio: Grazie, è un bellissimo posto quello dove ti trovi. Saluti da Milano (anche se non sono lì spesso). Bellissimi video! :ok: |
N reg might be an answer for some as the FAA have their own type certificate.
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TC validation
Eric,
Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard? Certainly that was the case in UK, since a Regulatory Authority is hardly in a position to legally direct maintenance and airworthiness activities on an aircraft for which they have no direct input to the actual design engineering? I am thinking here primarily of the product liability aspect so often exercised within USA :sad: Before EASA, for UK, CAA would assess an aircraft and its National TC; then if it met the standard of BCAR (with possibly the addition of the infamous 'Special Conditions') a UK TC would be granted.I think the same principal would apply, now, to FAA given the rationalisation of the spat over reciprococity and the validation of the EASA/FAA bi-lateral. But I may well be wrong, guidance appreciated - VFR |
They are there in larger numners
Guess I'm late in posting in this forum. A couple of more than what has been spoken in this forum about the numbers of LAMA are still flying in Indian subcontinent. I do agree that it may not be so by the end of this decade but at present they do have the numbers.
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VFR 440
I know what you are saying but the Bristol Brittania and DeHavilland Comet both have FAA type certificates as does the Djinn with Sud Aviation stated as the holder. The Americans have their own way of doing things so.......... I was at the Eurocopter operators conference just over two years ago when they announced that they were intending to stop blade production. Did not go down well. One of the operators pilots was in the same hotel as us and took the time to explain where the Lama beats the Squirrel hands down in a number of areas. As early as the mid-eighties the Lama was an embarrassment to Aerospat. We were asked what we would like to see at the factory, unanimous we all wanted to see where they built the Lama's. They refused point blank to show us. We had more chance at getting in to one of the top secret areas. I think I also owe you an email re Lama tech instructors from before christmas. Not forgotten just in the to do list. ericferret |
peeush, are these Lama or Cheetah?
Also, do you know if when EC pull the type certificate for the Lama whether this will affect Cheetah production also? Are they licenced under the same TC? |
Nice video of a Lama in Sweden from our friend Tat in the RATW thread :
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/243...ml#post7663057 . |
al2
hi
I have 3 x al2's 1 x 313b and 2 x 318c's are these any good for your courses they are based in Eastbourne, but often in Alcester so could drop in when needed - do you have hangerage ? ian |
Al 2 in UK!
Ian,
A very kind offer, which I'd be pleased to explore if something should come up in the future, thank you very much. Er..... no, no hangarage immediately adjacent, but I can look into that for 'near by'. Offer much appreciated - VFR |
N reg might be an answer for some as the FAA have their own type certificate. Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard? The Americans have their own way of doing things so.......... |
Heliservices HK
Heliservices in Hong Kong has several SA 315s and possibly a few other varients. Last I was there I believe they had 6 airframes 3 of which were operational.
Heliservices | SA 315B LAMA |
Lama not extinct (yet)
The Indian Army has placed a $77 million order with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) for 20 Cheetal helicopters, a re-engined variant of the AerospatialeSA316B Lama that was built under license in India as the Cheetah. The order is a short-term measure for logistics support to the Indian troops on the Siachen Glacier because of delays to the twice-bid competition for 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters (RSH). The future of that requirementis uncertain. http://www.ainonline.com/sites/defau...al-cheetal.jpg HAL has committed to “supply 20 Cheetals over the next four years besides providing training to its pilots and technical crew,” the company said in a statement. It has already delivered nine Cheetals from the 10-aircraft order the Indian Air Force placed as long ago as 2006, a HALofficial told AIN. The company is building Cheetals at a rate of one every 16 months. The new version is powered by a TurbomecaTM333 2M2engine. “Cheetal is just a lifeline. It is needed urgently because the troops are in a rarified atmosphere and casualties have to be evacuated as fast as possible,” an army official told AIN. But with the production of aluminum rotor blades now ended in France by Eurocopter and the TM333 engine also now out of production, there is concern about the supply chain for the Cheetal. With HAL insisting on paying only the price for these items that was charged when they were in full production, a delay in deliveries is inevitable, an MoD official told AIN. The Cheetal can operate at an altitude of up to almost 23,000 feet and has a range of 346 nm with an endurance of three and a half hours. The TM333 2M2 is fitted with a full authority digital engine control system (Fadec) and an electronic backup control box system that automatically takes over engine control in the event of a Fadec failure, said HAL. The company describes the Cheetal as “a multirole helicopter, best suited for missions such as personnel transport, casualty evacuation, reconnaissance and aerial survey, logistic air support, rescue operations and underslungloads.” I feel really sorry for those Indian troops caught up in that rarified atmosphere! :ooh: |
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