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That's an interesting requirement of the post :hmm:
It sort of says, in not so many words, "You can only have a job with NPAS as long as you are "on board", and don't go moaning about how the original spin of Improved efficiency and reduced costs has actually turned into less efficient and more expensive etc etc etc. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/pukey.gif Bet there's some more gems in the rest of the job description too :rolleyes: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg |
.. .. . .. ..
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After seeing the proposed observer shift patterns I can't believe many would have much good to say about NPAS.
Actually, if they do stick to the proposed shift pattern for the 19 hour bases they may struggle to retain observers at all.... whoever drafted that pattern seems to be under the illusion the observers live purely to come to work... And will never suffer fatigue! |
Having seen some of the neighbourhood policing shift patterns, I'll stick with the NPAS 19 hour one thanks, I'd rather be happy with job satisfaction and tired than undervalued, overworker and tired!! Oh and I know I will be finishing on time with ASU.
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It depends on the personal situation and your force shift patterns you will return to, personally, I have a family and I know me being at work 7 days/ nights in a row on the npas pattern will not go down well at all at home!
There are some good points raised on the Polka forum in the rosters topic... Such as the current resourcing being so frugal there is insufficient cover for everyone to take their leave, and reverting to 7 days on duty goes against all advice on staff health and well being. |
Unfortunately health and well being does not save money.
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But then again neither does NPAS, Just found out that TVP will be paying more under NPAS for 1 Aircraft than they did under CASU for 2 Aircraft :ugh::ugh::ugh:
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Just found out that TVP will be paying more under NPAS for 1 Aircraft than they did under CASU for 2 Aircraft they may struggle to retain observers |
Just found out that TVP will be paying more under NPAS for 1 Aircraft than they did under CASU for 2 Aircraft :sad::suspect::eek: := |
Perceptions
Wagging, when a task comes up only one aircraft will be despatched.
TVP will be paying for just that response not 23 responses. Because of the central control system that aircraft will inevitably get on scene late, and not in a position to offer a resolution. The force will end up paying for transit times and will not benefit from the marvelous 'service' that the 2 TVP aircraft and the crews now give those forces, that area and the very important - public. Your arguments are all 'politically correct' - blinkered, and not necessarily accurate, as were your observations about TFO's v neighbourhood policing. You will probably find no officer on the beat willing to stay an extra 5 hours collating digital evidence for no pay and no benefits other than, love of the job and the realisation that air support counts and brings in prisoners etc - results. And that is - priceless, and that is going to be lost..... := |
If NPAS is doing 'borderless tasking' surely that means that TVP like all other forces is actually paying for 23 aircraft, not one? |
GG
And that is - priceless, and that is going to be lost..... I strongly believe that there are units out there that would not survive if it wasn't for NPAS. Your comment about only one aircraft being tasked is correct, but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options, if the local aircraft is tech then that would normally mean little or no air support. It's time that some people took their heads out of the sand(or elsewhere for that matter) and realised change is coming, live with it or move on. The days of nice little private flying cubs are over, we will have to earn our money now. We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider. As regards TFO's V Neighbourhood policing that is for each of us to decide, the grass is not always greener on the other side, it's just cut different. I don't like to think of my comments as politically correct, just well considered and thought out, I prefer to work with fact rather than rumour, perhaps I'm in the wrong place. := |
but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options Then how many out of the ones lift will be off line due to Tech issues? Not a lot left to play with me thinks? So the nearest Aircraft that may be flying (In the wrong direction) that could be sent to the task will more than likely be more than the 20 minutes flying time from the job in hand!! Good planning, NOT :ugh: |
We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider. Cheers, Wagging Finger, I don't quite know how to thank you. :ok: |
Originally Posted by Wagging Finger
(Post 7355605)
GG
It's time that some people took their heads out of the sand(or elsewhere for that matter) and realised change is coming, live with it or move on. The days of nice little private flying cubs are over, we will have to earn our money now. We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider. := Most of us have actually been working very hard and earning our money, and then some... And I don't go with the old "we're all in it together" crap. I've seen which units/depts have been ring fenced. Some are more equal than others. |
This place is best for YOU
Wagging
You are in the right place, as long as your not in NPAS, or running it. "Private Flying Clubs" - you are way,way out of order, as is your give away comment about not worrying about results. Virtually all of the proud and hard-working people in air support actually 'care' about the service to the public - that's what it is all about Wagging. If you were running the Olympics Wagging, you would have paid for one song from Englebert and a packet of party poppers - because that was value for money and it was for 'someone else' to worry about the result. You just don't get it do you? :ugh: |
I am out of police air support now, I still feel insulted on the flying club comment. Our unit cared.
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Sorry WF you don't seem to grasp the physics of Air Support. The helicopter is just like Hems it saves money every-time it's in the air due to its force-multiplier.
It won't be long before the cry for proper Air Support goes out again and another person will make his career by re-introducing it. If you wanted real savings in Air Support, all it would have taken is one man and his secretary. All I say is "mini-tender". |
but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options As for flying clubs. :mad: |
Wagging Finger!
WF. Of all the crass and stupid comments that I have seen over the past 10 years or so reading pprune, your last comment just about takes the biscuit!
Firstly, you dismiss the hard working units that built UK Police Air Support from nothing in the mid eighties, to being a world beaters by 2004, calling them nothing more than flying clubs. Then you parade "borderless" policing as being some new concept! Well I wrote my first paper on the subject of Police Air Support at Bramshill in 1984, and became increasingly involved in air support over the next 15 years until I retired from the service in 1999. During all of that time, I never came across a police air unit that refused to attend a serious incident in another county, or whilst during a chase or a search, came to a shuddering halt at an invisible boundry because they were going out of area. It is true to say that UK Police air units were an object lesson in inter force co-operation. For NPAS to to claim that they have introduced borderless policing is nothing short of an insult! I'm out of it now, - (more's the pity but the years were rolling on). But I am proud of all those guys and gals too, who gave their everything to make air support work. And what did they get for it? A load of crap from some spotty faced youth in the Home Office and probably NPAS too, who decided that the air observer is not a front line officer and should not be paid accordingly. No matter that the Observer is there to ensure that we all get the best bang for our buck out of that admittedly expensive piece of kit up there. The aircraft is only as good as its crew, and if you want to turn them into a dis spirited and unenthusiastic team, then you are going the right way about it. This whole farce is the result of a chronic lack of leadership. HMG deliberately set up NPAS using people who knew nothing about the subject. They did it that way because they wanted to be in total control, which would have been challenged if they used experienced and skilled leaders. Sadly we are now all starting to reap what they sowed. Confusion and disenchantment. NPAS is here to stay, and I pray that it will soon start to become effective, but it cannot do that unless its leaders have the B***s to turn on their stupid leaders at the HO, and point out what a mess their policies are producing. Someone needs to remember that "This is a front line Police resource" and should be operated and deployed accordingly. It is there to combat crime of all types, not just for pre planned and major events. It has a strong element of providing vital support and safety to officers on the ground. Its greatest weapon lies in its speed of arrival overhead the incident, and as a result any delay built into its method of deployment, has a far greater potential to waste money than almost anything else. Sadly I write this knowing that no-one at NPAS or the Home Office will listen. They are set on their path towards ineffectiveness and I doubt that anything will shift them now. All attention is set on the next promotion or even the QPM. You don't get that for rocking the boat! I don't know 'cos it was even before my time, but I guess it must be a bit like it was in the mid 1930's when the Gov't were intent on reducing the RAF. They wouldn't listen then either.:ugh: tigerfish |
Well said TF. Shame on you WF.
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Well WF I work at a CASU unit that is going and proud to say that we always looked for excuses to launch and add something to an incident. I find your comments about units considering themselves as private flying clubs as very offensive.
So put your head above the wall now and tell us all which ASU is super duper that you can insults others:* |
I am a little confused as to why WFs statement that....
"The days of nice little private flying cubs are over...." is causing so much concern. Those days are now over, that is a correct statement and it was one that could be levelled at a number of units in the past [no names no pack drill]. I would say that recent developments in setting up NPAS have rubbed out the last of the so called "flying clubs" but I can pinpoint a number of periods where certain UK operations were described as exactly that [by people on this thread]. If WF had made that statement in the present tense that would be a different matter. Too sensitive by far!;) |
Sorry PA news!
Sorry PA News, but I don't accept your last post.
I can accept that several years ago ( And here I am talking mid 90's) there were a couple of units who owed their existance to a Senior officers whim, and as a result were less hungry for good arrests and good jobs than others. But we didn't live in a closed silo, and units with that sort of mentality soon found themselves being shaken up, and had to work hard to earn their corn. By the start of the new century they had all been put under the microscope and in the main were pretty much on the ball. By that stage it had become my job to visit most of them on a commercial basis, and from my own observations I would state that there were very few that wern't hungry for action. It is too easy to cast mud now that the die is cast, but explain if you can why some of the best were the ones to be taken down. I never got the impression that Merseyside or South Yorkshire were coasting. nor Chilterns North. Several of the others also under sentence of death were working hard too. What was there was a good framework, not perfect by any means and even I would have made changes, but the body was capable of being revitalised. But now after the draconion bloodletting of about 30% of hardware & bases, and also the dreadful terms and conditions that are currently being forced upon the workforce, I am not as confident as you clearly are, that all in the garden will be lovely. New observers will still be beating a path to the door will they? They were initially called Air Support Units, later it became fashionable to call them Air Operations Units. I rather think that that might just have been a mistake. We originally started the whole thing off to SUPPORT the officers on the ground who were having a pretty torrid time of it. What really does worry me is this. With the advantage of rapid air support now denied to the officer on the ground, will moral remain as high? Will assualts increase? What will be the effect on Public disorder issues? The helicopter with its very effective camera was a deterent. You are obviously confident that NPAS will not reduce any of the advantages that we had. I wish that I was as confidant! tigerfish |
At last a reasoned well thought out response, not one shot from the hip after a quick read of a post. thank you PAN.
I have lots of Police and ASU service and have seen these cyclical things come and go, but now is the first time in 25+ years that I have seen staff made redundant and departments closing, we are in a scary new world and we don't like it, myself included. As I have said previously though, like it or not we have to live with it. |
Tigerfish,
Leaders in the Home Office?? Sorry, you've lost me there..... |
Fortyodd2!
Good point! What I actually meant was I suppose the "Controllers" of NPAS, >"the suits" at the Home Office. To them leadership is a lost art. Although I suppose even that is a misnomer because I doubt if many of them know what leadership is. They would not recognise it if it smacked them around the face with a wet kipper. It used to be something the service valued. But today political correctness is much more important. tigerfish:( |
WF
I don't doubt that things are cyclical. I don't doubt that it's a new world. I don't doubt that many find it scary. I don't doubt that this is the way that things will move. I don't doubt that we will have to work in new ways. I don't even doubt that NPAS will all eventually work out very well. What I do doubt is that you will ever convince me that the men and women who have worked so hard in whatever capacity to make UK Air Support something of which we can all be proud, deserve to be told that they "don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider". That is an insult and this is my reasoned and well thought out personal response after a thorough reading and re-reading of your post. You may know a great deal about Air Support, you may know all about NPAS and comprehensive spending reviews but you know nothing of the people who care so much about what they do every day to help protect not only the public they serve but the bobbies they support. I know how little you understand them because the one thing that I will never doubt is their commitment to providing the very best service that they are capable of within whatever framework they are required to operate. |
Tigerfish,
I do not accept that kick back. It is plain English, the days of the flying club police aviation unit are over. Past tense. Thats what he said and whether it relates to 1970 [when they started], 1980 [when a few got out of flying club mode], 1990 [when more got into reality], 2000 or more recently that statement holds good as a peice of English recalling where many units passed through at some time in their development. Nothing to do with the rest of your post .... but as you raised the point of 'torrid times' I think a little reality needs to be inserted here. Air support today has come on in leaps and bounds and capabilities and I guess we might claim without having to bite tongues too much that the air cover is available 24/7/365. But it isn't is it? And never was, like the perfect dog search. It got better as time went on and more units launched but when fuel ran low on that aircraft circling you because the weather was good and they could pick you out with the SX16 you returned to 'torrid times' and got on with the job alone secure in the knowledge that it was 2155hrs and they were off duty in five..... but suddenly you needed permission to go on overtime they were never going to get... We survived, just as we did when the rain rained and the fog drew in.... or it was Sunday.... The first part of that last paragraph is universal even today and variations of 2155hrs are not yet dead and buried. Plod on the ground enters the 'Torrid Zone' at 0255hrs most days of the week somewhere in the UK today just as much as we did in historical times! And I can still hear the disturbing rustles and padded feet in the undergrowth in the early hours as I 'surrounded' a wood..... OK we are mainly talking history here but so was WF |
PA News,
I think you are still missing my point. OK there may have been a time long ago that one or two units might have fallen under the heading of flying clubs. But by 2005 they had long gone and the UK Police Aviation scene was pretty much well on the ball. Then came along Mr Hogan Howe, who produced a report which appeared to seek to address the ills of long ago. It was I think, originally an attempt to increase efficiency through a National Police Air Unit. But it was not adopted. Then later the Home Office looked at the report again, and realised that it provided an opportunity to save shed loads of money. To hell with increased efficiency! This was ALL about saving money. NPAS was the result! Going back to the flying club theme, what would your reaction be if you saw your doctor tomorrow, and he said to you "You had high blood pressure 25 years ago and we really must do something about it now" In relation to my comment about "torrid times" I was referring to the days when our Cities were suffering riots and general public order problems. Air support played its part in stopping that cancer. Note, - I said played its part. I did not say that it was solely responsible. But I do know because I was there, that the pictures and video that we took over one of our major flair ups, did help to convict many culprits and did prevent further occurences. Now the problem that I have with this Govt is that they like others before them, have very short memories. "Oh its quiet now the problem has gone away so lets get rid of all the expensive kit that gave us safety. the problem will never come back, & if it does, surely it will only take a couple of weeks to bring it all back". Its the same bloody mentality that can say to our armed forces. Hey guy's you did a bloody good job out there, were really proud of you! We are going to weep real (crocodile) tears because of your suffering. - By the way here's your P45! But I repeat what is needed now is Leadership! We are where we are. NPAS is a fact and it will not go away. It can work if it is seen to be fighting to preserve the terms and conditions that are in the interests of its operational crews. It can work if it points out to the Home Office and ACPO that what it is being forced to do is not condusive to a successful outcome. In short it can work if it discovers LEADERSHIP. tigerfish:mad: |
Landed at a hospital HLS in Aintree recently. Because of the risk we have to have security on site when we land. Got talking to the bobby and was not surprised when he told me "we dont bother calling for the helicopter these days, it either didnt come or took too long to be any use". This is a bobby who works ...................... Norris Green, gun capital of Europe. :ugh:
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Mersyside would be a good place to collect data on the possible effects of NPAS.
They have lost an aircraft from Liverpool, and the others carry out cross border ops as a matter of course. It's almost a mini NPAS and it's pretty much running now. How has the crime rate changed? How effective has it been getting an aircraft on scene in time? Do the boys on the ground even bother calling for air support? Do they feel more or less confident in their air support? Surely these questions can be answered fairly easily, if anyone cared to ask them, officially. :confused: |
My quote
"don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider" When Air Support is no longer tasked centrally every job will be a 'go' we will have no option to select jobs that we think we will get a result from(which is a basic tasking criteria). In which case our results will undoubtedly drop off. As individuals at units we will just become like the beat bobby, radio goes we attend. That is where my much observed quote comes in, we will have to get to the point where we "don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider" because if we don't we will drive ourselves mad. We will have to learn to live by this, for NPAS a result will be, our aircraft attended within the given time. The Police service very rarely publish arrest figures, they just deal with response times, did the Police arrive on time that's all. So be realistic, do you really think that at Command level they really worry how many people are arrested each day other that the impact it has on custody? They are more worried about, did they make the 9's was the phone answered on time, or the main figure the public seem interested about, the detection rate. I respect the views of ever poster here, my post with that quote has sparked a debate, that's what is missing with NPAS, there is no debate. Sadly on Pprune the debate only starts when more considered opinions come along. I did laugh at the Englebert and packet of maltesers comment though. If you don't think the world has changed, turn on the news more. Watch a program like Newsnight, read a paper (a real one) or better still engage in a debate once in a while. On a final note, I a not a Sir, I have been very careful throughout to not give away my gender, grade or race, it has a way of polarising a debate that I don't want to get into. What I will say, is I will ( hopefully) be part of NPAS, though not a big part. I will turn up get changed, go to calls and go home. I will,work hard because that is what I am paid to do. I will not go home and worry that we did not get a result because I have matured enough to realise that they all 'will come again' I look forward to the sensible debate, this post will create. := |
WF, you have your opinion and I have mine; they need not agree, in fact that is the very essence of debate. I just hope that you don't find my views insulting and condescending. I am sure that time will tell that you have made a great number of very valid points but it would take a better person than I to discern them at present.
I think that we have had our debate and I wish you all the best for the future but am unable to share your model of the world. |
Well said J.A.F.O!
tigerfish |
WF. Just because you are of the opinion that a job is not worth attending does not make it a bad job, it just demonstrates an arrogance that is quite unhealthy. And after being told to attend a job not giving a hoot about the results of that job is, in my view, a dereliction of the responsibilities of the attending crew to the Bobbies on the ground. This is of course only my opinion and forms part of a larger debate I am sure.
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Fly 4 fun
I have never said that jobs are not worth attending, neither have I said that I will attend calls and not give 100%. What I have said is, I will not tear myself appart with worry that we didn't get a result. We can debate this all day but it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen. |
.... it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen .... Sure, it will still happen, but it won't be anything like the beautiful sunrise that was forecast ! :cool: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg |
We can debate this all day but it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen. Uh umm, the Sun doesn't rise, the Earth rotates ;) |
WF
it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen |
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