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Have I missed something?
I see no point in going over old ground once again, but tigerfish was right ( and it cost him his job ) - NPAS has been a disaster from day 1. What could have been a great tool for increasing cover and efficiency, was instead used solely as a weapon to slash costs and in the process ruin what had been built into a world beating service. Administered and driven by a group of senior officers and politicians who knew nothing about Police Air Support other than cost, it was always bound to fail. So now it would seem that we have bare rump of a service that will cost forces just as much as it did before, but actually deliver far far less! It beggars belief! In other countries those responsible would be disgraced or imprisoned, but here I expect they will get the QPM or promotion Stands back and waits for explosion................:sad: |
With everyone still being 'in Principle', has anyone consulted Bobby Ewing yet?
New series of Dallas begins today :ok: |
Whitehead 06
Taking an objective view and looking purely at facts and not speculation and being an absolute pedant. (1) Has it saved the huge amounts that were promised? (2) Is it really capable of delivering an improved service as it promised? (3) Is it really the huge improvement in value for money that was promised? Occasionally this site defends into 'who shouts loudest/most is correct, if most people are true to them selves they will admit that the above answers are a true reflection of the current situation. The FACTS on the matter are;
Sadly there seems to be an entrenched attitude by some on this site that NPAS cannot/will not work because they say so. I have only one question to those in such a position. Have you attempted to become engaged in the NPAS process in a positive way? := |
Whitehead06 :
You forgot to ask : 4. If the answer to 1. is NO, and the answer to 2. is NO, and the answer to 3. is NO - will NPAS still go ahead ? - The answer to this is YES, because those in power have ordered that it will. End of. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...conuttySad.jpg |
Originally Posted by Wagging Finger
(Post 7243367)
Whitehead 06
Have you attempted to become engaged in the NPAS process in a positive way? := a) it had been kicked off by someone who had ANY previous experience of air support. b) if it began by reducing costs of EXISTING units, mainly by taking PAS and MAC out the equation, for engineering and pilotage. (thus saving boat loads of money.) c) if it sought to enhance/improve the police work we do from the air. Sadly it is merely a tool to chop resources. Nothing NPAS proposes is either not being done already, or previously considered, somewhere across the existing units. To be honest Winsor is the biggest cloud on the horizon at the moment anyway. |
Hear Hear!!:D:D
To be honest Winsor is the biggest cloud on the horizon at the moment anyway. |
To be honest Winsor is the biggest cloud on the horizon at the moment anyway. :sad: http://justoutsidetheboxcartoon.file...5/img_0472.jpg |
Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
(Post 7243726)
To be honest Winsor is the biggest cloud on the horizon at the moment anyway. :sad: http://justoutsidetheboxcartoon.file...5/img_0472.jpg £500 a month down, plus going to have to work 6 more years before I can retire IF my pension exists then..! (just for the record £500 is 25% of a cops' take-home pay on full scale). So bye bye helicopter, hello beat car.. |
Perhaps the question should be "Has NPAS tried to engage in a positive way with you"?
They have produced no hard facts based on truth, only assumptions. Their is a good phrase about assumptions.. |
Timex;
Their is a good phrase about assumptions.. |
Once again in my pedant role,
They have produced no hard facts based on truth 'They have produced little in the way of hard facts based on truth' would have been a better response. If we are going to engage in a reasoned argument we have to stick to the facts and try and avoid emotion, that is a dangerous road to go down. Granted that is probably why there is little coming from NPAS. |
The whole process has been a stitch up from the start. Different Police Authorities spun differing versions of the plan depending entirely on what was required to squeeze through to the next stage. If the benefits were obvious this would not have needed to happen. Now it's coming to crunch time (3 months to the off in the S.E.) some people in positions of responsibility are just beginning to wonder where the savings are actually going to be made, and hey the one helicopter in their part of a region will be flogging from A to B and not getting anywhere fast. Forget 24 hr access, by the time it gets there it'll all be over, and there'll be a gaping hole to backfill. But even though this seems obvious to very many of us, Wagging Finger thinks we can wait until 2016 to evaluate the figures. That's 4 years of reduced service to the public, and a reduction in cover that will take some areas back to pre 1990. Empire builders will be happy though, Well Done.
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HMIC pre-appointment hearing - News from Parliament - UK Parliament
08 June 2012 The Home Affairs Committee is today writing to the Home Secretary’s preferred candidate for the role of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Tom Winsor, to arrange a pre-appointment hearing. Committee Chair Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP wrote: Dear Theresa, PRE-APPOINTMENT HEARING: HER MAJESTY’S CHIEF INSPECTOR OF CONSTABULARY Thank you very much for your letter informing me of your preferred candidate to succeed Sir Denis O’Connor as Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary. Your letter refers to the date for the pre-appointment hearing. As you know, my committee clerks have been in continual contact with your office so that they could receive word of the candidate with enough time to circulate the relevant documents for a meeting on Tuesday 12 June. However, your letter arrived by e-mail at 17:44 on Thursday 7 June 2012. By this time, the Committee had arranged an alternative evidence session to avoid the entire session being cancelled. As you will appreciate, members of the committee also need time to see the documents before they interview a candidate of this importance. In your response to my letter requesting the names of short-listed candidates, you referred to guidelines issued by the Cabinet Office. As you know, the Government has agreed to give committees up to three weeks in which to hold a hearing and publish their report. This gives a committee the necessary time to study the relevant papers. The guidance suggests that the Committee should aim to give the witness at least a week’s notice of the session. I therefore propose that Mr Winsor should be available for a pre-appointment hearing eith on Tuesday 19 June or Tuesday 26 June. Please come back to me today by 4pm indicating which Mr Winsor prefers. I have also written to him direct giving him a choice of dates. Finally, may I point out that the first time I heard of your preferred candidate was in a telephone call from a Guardian journalist. I find this most worrying. On an issue of this importance, Parliament ought to be the first to know. Of course, I would also be glad to hear from you personally and you can call me on XXXX XXXX XXXX at any time. May I express my gratitude for the outstanding service that Sir Denis has given as Chief Inspector. The Committee looks forward to seeing Mr Winsor. |
Haha I'll show my ar@se if Winsor doesnt get that job..
Done deal, done deal, done deal :E |
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study project.
So the Merseyside 135 is off to Norway...!
Just out of interest are there any figures produced to back up the claim that the people of Merseyside are getting a "better" service now, than when they had their own a/c..? What are the figures being used.. Is it number of pursuits successfully attended. ? Number of direct arrests.? Anyone point me to a source of the figures.? |
Anyone point me to a source of the figures.? |
Anyone point me to a source of the figures.? |
All in the best possible taste :ok:
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Hmmm...let's just say that Number of Incidents Attended and Hours Flown in Support of, for 4 out of the 5 Forces since July last year, are way, way, down on those in the same time previous to last July. |
Well, it's clear that the committee has agreed that your new policy is a really excellent plan but in view of some of the doubts being expressed, may I propose that I recall that after careful consideration, the considered view of the committee was that while they considered that the proposal met with broad approval in principle, that some of the principles were sufficiently fundamental in principle and some of the considerations so complex and finely balanced in practice, that, in principle, it was proposed that the sensible and prudent practice would be to submit the proposal for more detailed consideration, laying stress on the essential continuity of the new proposal with existing principles, and the principle of the principal arguments which the proposal proposes and propounds for their approval in principle. |
Who got the Chief Pilot , NPAs job then, who, who...
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so ive been trying to find a bit more info about the performance of the NWAOG... Mainly to see how the loss of the merseyside a/c has effected policing there..
so far ive only found this we're now part of a regional collab with other NW police forces, we're ironing a few issues and will be tweeting again soon 332 days ago |
morris, see my last post.
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Ah... I've read a little more into your post then, and perhaps assume you some have first hand knowledge..!!
I'm curious because obviously merseyside is/was one of the first big urban areas to lose its a/c. So I was wondering how that has affected what I consider the main areas of work a police work, ie catching baddies. So. Do a/c get many jobs where arrests happen in Liverpool that are found by the a/c..? And do a/c get on many pursuits in Liverpool/merseyside. ? |
Watch him Dave - Moris could be a crim doing some detective work :E
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Congrats Lizard on the Chief Pilot job. Hope you enjoy living in the back of your car:E
I see the ground ops director slot has now been filled too. |
I see the ground ops director slot has now been filled too |
Originally Posted by Thomas coupling
(Post 7263003)
Watch him Dave - Moris could be a crim doing some detective work :E
OR. I'm a cop in a region where an a/c is going to be removed from service from a major population centre. And I'm looking for some hard facts to give to people when I'm constantly asked about what's happening...!! :p |
Where was this post advertised...
...or was it yet another shifty passing wink, along a darkened corridor, many moons ago, in a government department that doesn't exist yet! ;):suspect:;):suspect: I shall await Agent 'J' asking me to look into the light.... ;) |
If Lizard is taking the reins, that'll be a huge pick-me-up for NPAS. Good to have a real jockey in the saddle, someone who knows how to lead a Cavalry charge . . . although sadly becoming more the "Trot of the Light(weight) Brigade", supported by guns of too short range to engage the enemy! :(
P.S. Not sure if it's planned for GOD to manage the guns? |
Just to prove what an absolute waste of time NPAS will be. I saw this statistic today.
"the 3p per litre rise in fuel duty would raise 600 million pounds for the government". So NPAS are scratching around trying to save the odd million here and there and all that the cost of the UK's very effective police air support. (well it is in my region anyway, I'm not so sure about Hampshire.) If the government can raise £600m with one small flick of the pen like that, they won't give a toss about the pennies that NPAS are trying to save. Hopefully it will all fall over before too much damage is done. |
So NPAS are scratching around trying to save the odd million here and there and all that the cost of the UK's very effective police air support. (well it is in my region anyway, I'm not so sure about Hampshire.) If so, what basis do you have for that comment, and what region (yours) are you comparing it to. Do you have figures please? |
See, I wanted the Ground Operations Director job just for the acronym.
Ah, well, I suppose I'll stick with JAFO instead. |
Flight International
Is it me or has anyone's else noticed the lack of any articles about NPAS in Flight International? I mean I would have thought this is a very very big story considering NPAS most probably will mean the demise of the worlds premier Police Avation Industry?
Discuss...... |
Perhaps Flight International are not interested!
Generally speaking, these days, Flight are more into airliners and military with a bit of space and have never ventured a great deal into rotary aviation. They seem to have even given up the annual helicopter issue. I doubt Ollie and Co would shy away from any enquiry Flight may make but the exposure seems to be niche magazine and local newspapers because that is where the editorial demand is. The latest item I am aware of is in the latest edition of Waypoint AirMed & Rescue magazine [out this past week] and Ollie speaks in there. It is an issue foccussed on ALE. I know that he is also talking to the editor of Air Beat the [US] Airborne Law Enforcement Association house magazine .... again ...niche. Not seen anything in print yet from them, that may be a post Olympic issue. For most though there is no story. 18 months ago a plan was announced and carried by most publications, there have been adjustments in detail [which would be lost in Flight or Rotor & Wing even if they appeared] but the storyline remains pretty much unchanged until the show gets on the road around October time. They may stir their pens, intercept your mobile phone calls and bug the crew rooms but really nothing much is going to happen to NPAS this side of Christmas that will interest the Eskimos and Fijians.... so your expectation is perhaps over valuing the storyline. The only near term storyline is Olympic Security but that is not for talking about until after September when its all over..... and hey, thats called October which is where we came in!:ok: |
I tried to publish a link to the article, but was not able to. You normally get it by subscription.
I did read the article. From my recollection it was pretty much the NPAS "party line" given by Ollie to the journo. I think we need to be realistic about the importance of this issue to others. It remains a niche interest, as PANews suggests. The aviation world as a whole could not care less. The UK police world has so many balls in the air, and they don't know what is going to hit them next. Some in the police may believe the NPAS propaganda at the moment: not everyone understands how police aviation had been optimised. Mostly politicians just want to make cuts. One of the most hopeful audiences seemed to me to be those bidding to be future police commissioners. Whatever you may think of the idea of commissioners, it would be good to try and make use of them at this stage. They will all be very keen to please at present because they will want votes in November. Given what they are supposed to do once elected, you would hope they would want to represent their local police force interests. If it could be suggested to them that NPAS will produce inferior police air support for their police force, they may be prepared to raise questions about the NPAS steamroller. I recall a candidate for the Bedfordshire job had been opposing the closure of the Henlow base and removal of their aircraft in the media. That would be a good example, given the vast hole in coverage that will be opened up if Henlow goes. |
Originally Posted by aeromys
(Post 7268202)
Morris, do I read that as you believe police air support to Hampshire is not very effective? If so, what basis do you have for that comment, and what region (yours) are you comparing it to. Do you have figures please? Although I'm led to believe Alex Marshals Hampshire force have never run their own air support unit, so it was always a curious choice for the NPAS lead. I do hear tales and rumours of certain, southern units not turning a blade for days on end and not being able to deploy to jobs unless specifically requested to go. ie not being able to self-deploy. If that's the case then it's no wonder Mr marshal sees some spare capacity that can be trimmed. But no, no figures, just rumour. As per the title of the website.. :cool: |
Ah, my apologies, I thought you were having a pop at Air Support in Hampshire :O
In the last few years response has increased a great deal, going from one fixed wing to two helis as part of the SE consortium. Up until the consortium Hants ran their own Air Ops unit for many years, and I think were one of the very first (and hopefully Bryn will jump in here) permanent Police Air Ops Units. |
Morris,
I am not sure how much you know about down south. Aeromys will no doubt give you his views, but let me provide some historical background. For many years Hampshire had a plank. I hesitate to comment further, but let me say that whenever neighbouring police helicopters provided air support to Hampshire for active jobs, it was always welcomed by the troops on the ground. The plank has gone. Because they were forced out of their base at Fairoaks by a number of attacks on the aircraft by crims, Surrey AOU moved to RAF Odiham in Hampshire a few years ago. The Surrey and Sussex heles (at Shoreham) provide cover for a SE area consortium [Surrey/Sussex/Hampshire], so it is almost fortuitous that the Surrey hele is located in Hampshire. I believe the plan under NPAS will be to have only one base: the latest I heard it would be at Redhill in Surrey, which would have its own problems if it was to come to pass. So you are right that Hampshire and CC Marshall has never run a helicopter. If anyone wanted to defend his position as the Air lead they might mention he used to work in Thames Valley. |
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