KK - very well put about "Vera City" and his nonsense about 902 serviceabilty.

***I suspect an old troll in a new disguise!!!
(the tell-tale sign will be if he starts wittering on about PAS and CPAS being run by the anti-christ!);)

South Yorkshire Police are obviously still very keen to keep their own helicopter. According to the news a couple of days ago they are now considering paying their (involuntary) subscription to NPAS and still finding the money to retain what they have! :ok:

The Sheffield locals are very unhappy about the thought of losing their eye in the sky. How good to hear that, not many years ago everyone was against the thought of police aviation. The ASUs do obviously earn their keep in the eyes of the general public. Good luck to them, hope this works out for the best ;)

Have the salesmen been around?


Fixed Wing Aircraft in Law Enforcement

In the words of a candidate on The Apprentice ... 'How many can I put you down for ?'

http://www.tecnam.com/Themes/WebSite...pagina_MMA.jpg

Tecnam MMA (Multi Mission Aircraft) - Costruzioni Aeronautiche Tecnam
http://www.tecnam.com/Flotta/MMA/Spe...cification.pdf

I'll put you down for half a dozen then!

;)

To enhance the credence of the words somewhat, that promotional piece for fixed wing was written by former Lt Ken Solosky who was latterly the Chief Pilot of the all helicopter New York PD operation and then, in 'retirement', Chief Pilot of the Newark NJ helicopter operation.

So I would guess that he saw something missing from his arsenal ...... that fixed wing might fill.

Solosky gets about a bit and mixes it at conferences where NPAS also appear - so in answer to your question, yes, [certain elements of] NPAS are aware of the cost effectiveness of fixed wing based on access to the experiences of others at Networking events like 'law enforcement' aviation conferences.

There are a number of these occurring throughout the year and many of them are free to enter for ALE personnel so for NPAS they may be seen as a good investment in the future.

As the French Gendarmerie aviators may say about such things ......Bon!

Strikes me as amazing that the public and politicians are being sold this..
Looking at the costs involved

http://meetings.southyorks.gov.uk/mg...2928&T=9&zTS=A

They appear to be seriously considering the "option 3".. whereby they operate 10 hours per day 7 days a week..

The cost 1.686 million per year..

Current cost of running their own unit (INCLUDING MAINTENANCE..!)

cost 1.68 million per year.... :}

So for an increase in costs, they will lose use of their own a/c for half the period they run now.
Lose their maintenance section
Lose half their Observers
Lose half their Pilots
Lose a manager

Oh.. but cover for the rest of the period will come from NPAS.. so thats ok then..

Ah.. but only 700 hours per year INCLUDING travelling time of the "visiting" a/c.

Tell me again. Whats the advantage of doing this..?

:ugh:

response times
 

So in a quiet moment i had a look at this response time thing with south yorks and tried to reverse engineer the maths..
I put them in a spread sheet and added the SPEED column...
Is the 902 at South Yorks particularly slow..??
Because everyone seems to be quicker than them..?



Tabs removed: you will have to put it in a format that doesn't scroll across 2 feet of the page!

SP

fox5,

While you're doing the Maths, could you help out by factoring in a very basic
and fundamental principle that NPAS seem to have omitted :

NPAS have published maps depicting their now infamous "20 minute" range circles,
that indicate the proposed coverage under their 20 Base plan.

These maps appear to have been used to persuade Chief Constables and Police Authorities around the UK,
that they will receive a service that is more effective and will costs less.

The point has been raised previously elsewhere, and to my knowledge has not been contradicted,
( so I can only assume it is correct ), which is that the 20 minute circles
have been calculated incorrectly on the assumption that the aircraft
is travelling at a constant speed throughout the journey - from skids off to arrival,
( did they use 120 Kts or 120 MPH ? - The Circles seem to represent about 30 miles radius ),
when in reality of course, unless deploying while already at Transit speed and directly overhead the Base,
the aircraft starts from Base at 0 Kts, will have varying departure profiles depending on wind speed and direction,
and other factors that may preclude departing directly on track, BEFORE accelerating up to Transit Speed,
and then slowing down again as the target location is reached.

This basic principle means that the published 20 minute circles,
on which decisions as to whether to sign up to NPAS or not are being made,
may be WRONG and that the actual area that can be covered in 20 minutes is LESS.

( Of course it is accepted that there are times when aircraft WILL already be airborne
and on such occasions deployment times may be shorter, but generally most deployments are made from Base ).

The attached NPAS coverage map ( from the Public Domain ) illustrates the point nicely,
as there are also some "15 minute" circles - which in my very humble and unsupported opinion,
are probably more realistic of the area that COULD be covered in 20 minutes,
especially when taking into account that those 15 minute circles
have probably also been calculated with the same flawed mathematical assumption of constant aircraft speed.

So, all that needs to be factored in AFTER the above, is an examination of the time taken under existing practices -
from from when a person ( such as a PC ) at the scene of an incident requests Air Support,
to the time that the request reaches the ASU staff and a decision is made to deploy,
compared with the time taken to achieve this under any NPAS deployment plan, such as via a Regional or National Control Room,
with any additional time taken reducing the "20 minute" circles, and thus reducing effective coverage, even further.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...PASBaseMap.jpg


A few Purple patches in there amongst the 15 minute circles :\

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

Cocochap,
I think you will find that the "20 minute" circles were actually based, not on any aviation or mathematical formula, but on an item of crockery :\.
Even from the point we walk/run out of the door, we cannot make Sheffield in the NPAS advertised time - even with a favourable wind.
You cannot change the laws of physics :=

.. I bet the thickness of the crayons used wasn't factored in either :8

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

My table was removed by moderator..!

The speeds are all over the place when multiplied out.

But the SYP explorer only gets above 100kts on one item of data.
On quite a few it's only travelling at 60kts or so. While the NPAS a/c according to their figures are all travelling at over 100kts, and quite often 120kts or more. Hence the question about whether the 902 is slower than the NPAS a/c. ?
I'll try and re tabulate the data so it can be displayed.

Interesting to note the 'uncovered' high crime rate city just to the north and west of map centre.
How can the CC of that city's force be happy enough to sign up to a plan that sees the biggest city on his patch being on the outer edges of the cover provided by 5 different units?


By the way when do we see the updated map with a few more green circles on it? ;)
When it appears in public, I take it that with taxi times/ATC/movements etc, the timing circles will be based from 'Top of Climb'.

I'll try another way..

SYP WYP HUMPOL DERBY
These figures are the multiplied out speeds for the various a/c from the NPAS chart.
ie distance (NMs.?) divided by time (minutes) mulitplied by 60 to give knotts or MPH depending on what NPAS used.
.
AVERAGE A/C SPEEDS
sheffield...... SYP... 61........WYP .....114.... HUMB.... 125.... DERBS.... 113
darnall........ SYP..... 31.......WYP.... 115......HUMB ....125....DERBY.....112
heeley..........SYP......65.......WYP.....116.....HUMB...... 127....DERBY.....115
fox house.....SYP......78.......WYP.....115.....HUMB......127... .DERBY.....114
ecclesfield....SYP......74........WYP....112.....HUMB......1 26....DERBY.....118
orgreave.......SYP.....43........WYP....115.....HUMB.......1 27...DERBY.....116
rotherham.....SYP.....52........WYP....113.....HUMB.......12 6....DERBY....118
doncaster......SYP....101.......WYP....115.....HUMB.......12 2....DERBY....123
barnsley........SYP....100.......WYP......96.....HUMB....... 127....DERBY.....121

sorry about the rubbish formatting but its te best i could do for now..
If i figure out how to do it ill put the full chart on..

So I just wondered why the SYP aircraft is so slow, when the humberside a/c is very fast..?

Ahh, the magic 20 minute circle theory...
Fox 5 I think you've cracked the secret code. The NPAS created chart has at last been decoded, the numbers are all made up (by NPAS to prove their argument) ;):ugh::ugh:;)

So why is the SYP explorer unable to go faster than 100kts, even on a transit between sheffield and Doncaster. ?
Is it uphill ??

Is there any truth in the rumour that the bean counter's in the MET are going to slash their specialist services post Olympics to save money. This may include the removal of one of their aircraft. This surely will have grave consequences on the NPAS model as they are supposed to fill in lot's of gaps around them. (This rumour did come from another MET specialist unit not the ASU).

http://www.pimaair.org/images/collec..._MG_2035_a.jpg

I think this will be the only way NPAS will make any saving's ;)

If the Met ASU does get absorbed into NPAS, it would be very interesting to see what would happen. The Met has some very specific but unusual deployment priority criteria, certainly when compared with other ASUs. They also have an already established system to cope well with a massive number of jobs suitable for ASU tasking. They also already fly over 3,000 hours per year (between 3 aircraft), so there is not much slack to be taken up on other force tasking.

It will be interesting to see who prevails: my money would be the "comfort blanket" for the senior officers managing the high profile events.

The Met though is very different from other ASUs. They already have an really effective dedicated control room facility and in-house engineering on their solo type. It will be very expensive to absorb into whatever NPAS ends up doing. Almost inevitably less effective IMO. Worse for the Met and not much availability for other forces.

In the end it may well depend upon how the senior bods in the MET approach things. The Commissioner when CC for Merseyside appeared to have been happy to lose his helicopter, without much pressure. And I believe he was the ACPO lead for air support at the time.

20minute circles based on crockery add to that the time delay built in by the call handler who answers the 999 call then passes this over to the controller who then passes it again on to the NPAS dispatch cell who then choos which aircraft to task who then need a minimum of two minutes to leave the office and start the aircraft and take off.......

Oh and the MET only ever have access to 1.5 aircraft for the simple fact the other bits are in for maintenance. So that map needs to reflect this. IMHO.

And back down the bunker for me.

So....

In that well publicised South Yorkshire Police Authority meeting, the one where they decided not to join NPAS,I'm sure I heard the NPAS representative telling them that under NPAS there will be a fleet of different aircraft, such as 135,s 145,s and Fixed Wings available for deployment to any NPAS member, when there is an identified need for one of them.

That might not actually be true then ? :eek: :rolleyes: :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

Heard today that NPAS currently deep in the red and if it was a PLC the administrator's would be running it. When are government projects going to learn their lessons. This smacks of a mini Nimrod programme, driven hard and fast and nobody having the sense to say "STOP this is not working how we thought and the savings are minimal for the lose of service".:ugh:
At least Mr Herbert get's to keep his helicopter in his constiuency, sorry should not be cynical after all it is all for the greater good NPAS
Not Providing A Service ;)

His mate Mr Windsor is earning 300 quid per day for coming up with his guff..
(plus the other 300 per day for his mate from the same law firm)

"At least Mr Herbert get's to keep his helicopter in his constiuency"

Is he, are you sure?

Nick Herbert - for Arundel and South Downs

I think you will find it is relocating to Redhill

Sorry Ivor E Tower, you are correct it is just outside his constiuency boundary but all within 10 mins flying time.:ugh:

Latest rumour it may not be the 902 going to Redhill now but a 135, somebody must have banged their head and come up with the corrct decsion.;)

Has anyone wondered whether the writers of 2012 (Hugh Bonneville trying to organise the Olympics) had picked up any of their material from an NPAS meeting?? ;)

Has anyone wondered whether the writer of the "Winsor Review into Police Pay & Conditions" ( now publicly available ) has an alterior motive ?

In his submissions, the role of Police Air Observer is not a qualifying "Specialist Role", and the current maximum pay point for Police Officers would not be available to Air Support Officers, effectively meaning that the maximum pay for that role would be £5487.00 LESS than it is now ( not to mention the additional £1122 CRTP payment made to those that have been at the top of the pay scale for 12 months and have demonstrated competency in their role ).

It's not clear what would happen to those in post now as to whether they would suffer a hefty pay cut ( one would hope not ), but how does Mr. Winsor envisage recruiting Police Officers into that "Non Specialist" role, when the prospects for pay progression are so poor, compared with some of the other roles that do qualify as "Specialist", such as Traffic Officers, Complaints & Discipline Officers, Custody Officers, Community Safety Officers etc etc ......

I'm sure there are a LOT of highly skilled Police Observers ( who have had to pass rigorous selection procedures, received intial training to natioal and local standards, and are required to maintain and demonstrate their competencies in the role annually by way of "Line Checks") who will feel insulted that they are not considered to have Specialist Skills, and will no doubt be raising the issue as a matter of urgency with their Police Federation representatives, to canvass for their role to be included as a Specialist skill, and be appropriately rewarded for the work they do.

Or are they all going to be booted out under NPAS and be replaced by Civilian Staff :rolleyes: ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

I reckon someone has pointed out that Police Observers are still classed as passengers and realised there were savings to be had.
Maybe it just goes to show that despite 25+ years of Police Air Support, those on high still have little idea of what it's all about :rolleyes:

Lovely, a few/lot/most units do, but they are still "passengers" :rolleyes:

W.S.

It is not about fairness or about objective measures of worth. It is about saving money.

So it seems that Yorkshire have to make a decision this week as to whether they will host NPAS. Or shall I rephrase that:
The Home Office insists that S Yorks makes their play by the end of this week.
[Otherwise "Hogan Howdie stranger" will remove said upstarts from starting blocks and do it himself in the Met].

It's all coming to a head as the deadline looms and the AOC is still in the minds of those who can make it work. Busy busy.........................

Correct me if I am wrong but don't you need a Police officer on board the aircraft in order to call it a Police helicopter ??

Stand corrected, you are wrong, CAP612 refers.

Csi vehicles are marked police andl only have police staff on board

Police Air Support: The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012 - WMS
 

Police Air Support: The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012 - WMS | Home Office

Does this mean that The Minister of State for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert) can force a constabulary to host NPAS?

IF a force as big as W Yorks turn down the chance to host NPAS - who will then look at NPAS as being a viable proposition? I can only think of one force, has TC hit the nail on the head?

:confused:

Not in the "Non Police Air Service" you don't :oh:

Good job too because if those Police Reforms go ahead,
there won't be any Police Officers prepared to take the £6k+ pay cut to do the job !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...conuttySad.jpg

Nick Herbert and Alex Marshall must be on another planet if they think what they have put forward is true :ugh::ugh:



On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following:

• It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year – in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.
• 97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time.
• It will also save the police service £15m per year when fully operational.

Still banging the same old drum which might have sounded good originally,
and who wouldn'l agree to such a fantastic plan, BUT :


This can / has been / is being done NOW without NPAS !

Figures unproved / unreliable, and DO NOT mean 97 per cent of the population will get Air Supoort within 20 minutes for "24 hours a day, 365 days a year".

Really ? <yawn> - Isn't that just the cost of the scrapped / doomed aircraft removed under the NPAS plan ? Oh and :

.... that's around 2018 isn't it ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...conuttySad.jpg

That pay cut is getting greater and greater everytime it is mentioned on a different site. Aren't the new scales showing a difference of £5487 between 6&7? Certainly not "£6k+"

As it is recognised in the report, it would be interesting to see how many Police Officer Observers have actually used their warranted powers while on duty as a rostered observer! ;)

Sid - Spot on - the proposed scales do indeed show a difference of £5487, between points 6 & 7,
but unsurprisingly, they don't take into account that a PC on the top of the scale now, ( Point 7 of the proposed scale )
that has been there for 12 months or more, may also be in receipt of "Competency Related Threshold Payment"
( CRTP ) of £1212 a year, bringing the total potential difference to £6699 :\

( Figures edited from initial post - CRTP is not £1122 a year - it's £1212 a year ! )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...conuttySad.jpg