Police Civilianisation of air support
 

There are more signs that the moves to put civilians into high places have not been given up.

Over in Birmingham out goes one Chief Constable and before the new one comes in they may have decided the deal. An advert on the West Midlands Police web site probably tells only part of the story.

They are seeking someone to fill the post of Air Support Supervisor incorporating some management and control of the Air Operations Unit together with the duties of air observer. In short a civilian Deputy UEO, the sort of job a sergeant used to do. This will initially be a 12 month temporary contract, with the possibility of becoming a permanent position.

The main responsibilities of this position are to assist with the general supervision of a team of police staff. The post will ensure compliance with force policy and regulations contained within the PAOM and the CAA, whilst maximising the availability of the WMP helicopter.

How much is this worth? £25,080 - £30,621. A PC earned that a decade ago so its clear big savings are in the offing compared to the cost of a sergeant. But I guess that the cops will not be over the moon at being 'led' by any aerial PCSO and the reputed need for 'excellent interpersonal skills' may only be half of it.

Clearly the post is aimed at eventually producing the next UEO but there is some suggestion that its aimed at a retiring policeman as they want someone with previous experience as a UEO or Deputy UEO and as an air observer. Strangely enough there are few mere mortals with those skills!

So is this deal already made to cover someone without sufficient seniority to make the UEO job in one go?

Actually its being done that way because

1. The 'mother organisation' finds it increasingly difficult to work out why it takes two Sergeants to supervise ten PCs. Now, you might say that the rank(s) are required because of the upward responsibility of a UEO rather than the downward supervision, we couldn't possibly comment.

2. There is an increasing reqirement to 'flexipost' positions and not use police officers where non-police officers might be able to fill the position. If an organisation is going to do that, they would be negligent if they did not trawl around in the first instance for suitably qualified personnel. For a role such as that of Deputy UEO the requirement to be a qualified air observer is a necessity, we run a fairly lean (in personnel terms), unit. Within our own organisation there is a surprisingly large pool of candidates qualified for the job. That is not to say that they will all go for it though.

That is simply wrong.

Within our own organisation there is a surprisingly large pool of candidates qualified for the job. That is not to say that they will all go for it though.

However, having seriously explored the potential civilianisation of all observer positions, the organisation has come to the (correct in my view), decision of maintaining the status quo

I stand corrected where admonished.

However just to clarify a potential misunderstading '... there are few mere mortals with those skills!' stands on the basis that the percentage of the general population this post is open to is tiny [number of pre-trained police air support professionals v the working population].

I fully understood your point, but if you had a vacancy for a surgeon (No, I'm not trying to say that a DUEO is of the same standard as a surgeon)! Would you want a qualified one or would you just recruit anybody and hope you could train them to a suitable standard? With the current strain on public sector finance, it is only right that any public organisation attempts a cost effective recruitment process.

Something similar to what's being advertised seemed to work very well in Wiltshire last time I had the privilege to work there. Dunno what was being paid, but I reckon the good peops of Wilts were getting excellent value for money.

So long as "value for money" doesn't turn into "cheapest to be had" - they're not quite the same thing!!

An bear in mind a couple of old police wisdoms, so to speak.....

1. The police spend so much time worrying about what they spend, yet scarcely give a moments thought to what they waste!

2. Police are the same the world over - if they can't eat it, drink it or ride it, they'll break it!

Of course the question must be asked...Why do you need Police Powers to be an observer at all?
When was the last time you landed and carried out an arrest?
When was the last time you landed and seized a firearm,ammunition or explosive?
Anything else can be carried out by a suitably trained and cheaper civilian.

The DUEO and two of the Observers in Surrey are civillian staff and they work very well :ok:

This seems to be following a depressingly familiar pattern that we have seen in the Military:
1. In order to cut costs (not to improve capability) civilianisation of certain posts is proposed (generally by someone in management looking to make a name for themselves).
2. Since many of the posts require military experience, ex-mil (in this case ex-police) are recruited to pacify those who rightly highlight the operational capability issue.
3. The next time the job comes up, the 'civilian' has proved himself as capable as the miltary/policeman so the next civilian in post doesn't need to be ex-mil/police and the true distinction between mil and civilian in the job is discovered. Other similar departments/forces meanwhile hold up the operation in question as a 'new direction' and a way to provide 'value for money' and the management monkeys all jump on the same bandwagon without considering if it is the right thing to do.

The net result is a long term reduction in capability which is near impossible to rectify since it will now cost more to recover said capability and the bean counters won't wear it.

The second is that your mil/bobby has had a nice job removed from his prospective range of employment and recruiting starts to be an issue because there is no respite or variation from the normal front-line duties.:ugh:

CRAB
 

For once you and I can agree over something. I suspect that in this case the people making the decisions know little of the front line tasks and just how 'tuned-in' the observers have to be to work effectively. This first step away from the normal police helicopter crew is not the one to fear. It's the next one where the temptation to dilute basic crew skills further is likely to be the problem.

The difficulty is the finacial side of things is not getting any easier. I had the pleasure of flying the Met back in the late 70's and getting the cash for a Bell 47 was tricky - and we were the only ASU in the country! Now look at things. ASUs have proved their indispensability but the cops cost a lot and their pensions are costing them dear. Something has to give so I guess saving a few quid on a DUEO is seen by some as an acceptable move.

I suspect that the next year will see many of our government funded organisations (including the cops and the military) making some difficult choices as we run out of cash.

The last time this happened the RN cut back on stationery and we ran out of paper. This resulted in the famous base-commanders temporary memo making it compulsory for paper to be used on both sides before being discarded. One wag stuck a copy on each toilet door. :}

G :ok:

Spot on Crab!

The only bit to add I suggest is that first time round the "civilian" job is only made acceptable (cash wise) by the addition of a mil/police pension!

If you got paid simply for driving around in a flash car wearing Ray Bans then the queue for the job would stretch for miles. You get paid for rolling in the gutter with drunks,confronting determined criminals and in your spare time picking up body parts from the road to prevent anyone seeing them being licked by ferrel dogs. That is the reality of Policing, not flying around in a helicopter like Prince Andrew.
As for down time from front line duties is concerned, give me a break that's what you get days off and annual leave for. If you don't like front line Policing then get promoted.

"When was the last time you landed and carried out an arrest?"

8 occasions in the last 12 months arresting 17 crims in the process.

If it was simply about training you might have a point. You cannot buy experience or "Copper's Nouse" in a package and issue it to a trainee.

Coppers Nouse? As Jim Royal would say ...My A**E.
There is no such thing just professionalism and observing human beings and their movements. It's not magic. As for the 17 arrests in 12 months would that I could believe you.
The Pilots are civilians and that does not detract from the service so why should they be the only civilians in the aircraft.

To go back to the original post, they must be looking to recruit an ex-Bobby with a pension because no-one would do the DUEO's job (for long) at that money if it was their only income.

As usual nothing to do with quality...just how many and how cheap.

This has nothing to do with money in theory.It is horses for courses.Why take a highly trained Police Officer from the steets and put him in a helicopter when you can train a person in 2 weeks to do the same job. This spurious argument that you need to have a Police background to be an observer does not carry much weight nowadays.
The only reason that Police Officers fight against the obvious is because of the kudos of wearing flight overalls and posing in the passenger terminal talking to P.C.'s Heckler and Koch.
Good job you don't know where I live isn't it ?

Paarmo - you want dates and times? PM me.

Paarmo, not sure where you get your info from but its wrong..

Paarmo - you are either a young thruster trying to make a name for himself or one of those management monkeys I mentioned earlier - at least you seem to have a chip on both shoulders:yuk:

Paarmo, I spent thirty years in the police, albeit in a different jurisdiction. I cannot think of a single instance where I would have chosen "freshly-trained but without experience" over "experience", either as a constable (in your ranks) looking for back-up or as a Sergeant detailing people to get the job done.

Would we take a freshly trained Air Traffic controller and let him/her loose in London Control, or take a CPL out of flight school and thrust upon them the full responsibilities of AOC work?

Hmm, didn't think so. But why not - it's that funny little thing called "experience"again, isn't it?

paarmo

You're wrong.

I suspect Paarmo isn't bothered whether anyone agrees with him, I think he has achieved what he wanted..

Didnt we go round this buoy once before.........?

You spend 2 years being trained in your Probation. 4/5 years doing the job gaining " experience " and then join the air support unit. You attend a short training course and then join the flight crews as a junior member to gain "experience ". After 4/6 months you are considered " experienced ", You spend another 18 months on the crew and return to normal duties. Replaced by another " INEXPERIENCED " trainee. Seems to me that experience in aircrew observing is gained by work experience. Wouldn't it be better to employ someone whose whole working life was dedicated to gaining experience in the job rather than chopping and changing all the time.
Yes it probably would be cheaper as the observers would not be paid a Police Officers rate for obvious reasons but the experience contained within the unit would be invaluable rather than chopping and changing all the time. As an aside , how many civilians do you employ in the iniquitous central control rooms nowadays.I know some are crap, but there again so are some Police Officers.

:mad: Its quite obvious that paarmo has no clue what he is talking about, or hes a civvie that cant get a decent job cause there all taken by experienced police officers.
A police force does not save money by employing civvy observers. If it did there would be loads.
Would you really put the least experienced basically trained person in a police forces most expensive asset. Answer......only if you were a boss who ain't got a bl**dy clue what an airsupport unit does.

Does that help you paarmo (sir)

Paarmo, sorry mate but more tosh. When qualified the guys and girls will stay on Air support for quite a few years, they will only go back to core Policing when they want or if some bright spark decides to civilianise the Units...

Your address says Teeside, give their Air support a call I'm sure they could put you right on your concerns.

By that logic, Paarmo, then nobody would ever, nor should ever, move out of any position within the police. No transfers into Traffic Branch, Detective Branch, Drugs, Crime Ordinary, Fraud, Community Policing - pick you area - or back. Perhaps even promotion would be disallowed, too be experienced to be allowed to advance?

Hardly!!

Anyway, you've had your sport and risen a few bites, now go away!

Quick question lads. What is the average amount of experience or hours that a "new guy" entering the ranks of a police aviation unit in the UK need to have? Is it like many of the US aviation units where you need just the bare bones commercial cert?

Paarmo, you have some very strong opinions. It's a shame that they are obviously made from a position of ignorance.

If we are going with your theory, why have military pilots in the Forces. 99% will never come into contact with the enemy so why not have civvies flying the 146's, C-17's, Seakings etc. There's no need for these pilots to be military is there?

Why have you got to be a soldier to fly an Apache, oh, may be it's because you have done your bit at the sharp end so are able to offer a better service to those on the front line now.

:rolleyes:

I hear he's a very nice chap ;)

What can I say, other than "Watch this space" - only 6 days left to apply.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

Average hours would be 1500-2000 hours with about 500 Twin, quite often the requirements are a lot higher.

errrr... where'd you get that from?

Darren, unlike in the US, all Police pilots over here in the UK are civilians. The minimum experience required is much as the previous post says, although some units ask for more.

Cheers lads, I always thought that police aviation operations would benefit more from an experienced pilot non-police officer type than the experienced police officer with 200 hours under his belt. Probably the best of all would be an experienced officer with lots of flight time, but I'm sure they're few and far between.

Not really much to do with this topic though, sorry for the hijack!:ok:

Droopy,

Why do you think that most Police pilots are ex-forces?

Ex-forces, with appropriate experience, because that experience brings with it a significant likelyhood of safer operations in what, to most civvies, is an alien environment - that's not to say that all civvie pilots are no good, as a number have stepped up to the plate in recent years.

There's a separate issue, which goes with the debate started by this thread, that of the ex-police DUEO salary relfecting a pension. Pilot pay has, sadly & for many years, reflected the fact that most of the ex-military pilots are in receipt of a pension - somewhat grating to those who haven't!!:*

Epiphany, I didn't say anything about police pilots being ex forces [though in the UK about 75% are]. I was commenting on the unusually high figure of 500hrs night.

Ahh apologies Droopy - I though that you were asking where pilots get 500 night hours from.

I think it's 500 hours TWIN not NIGHT. **** me you would have to be a vampire to have that!