Heliringer,

Do a couple of years on a busy Police Unit and you will have 500hrs night..........and feel like a vampire!

FNW

Night Hours
 

2700hrs and big teeth!!!:E

2000 hours total 1500 as pilot in command 500 on twins 50 hours at night PAOM 1

heres one to lob into the saving money equation - go down to 2 crew. Pilot plus observer. Slash budgets in a stroke, reduce coffee bills, equipment budgets oh the list of benefits is endless... or is it?

Could it work? Anyone tried it? lots of snags but are there any benefits? :confused:

Yes, Devon and Cornwall.

The other question to be asked apart from why not civilianise the whole system is do we as council tax and national taxpayers actually need Police helicopters. It's a bit like having a dishwasher. Very nice but is it really an essential in these straightened times.

Straitened. Sp. see me after class, 50 lines:- "I must not challenge the accepted wisdom of police air support"

A dishwasher is a luxury item a police helicopter is not. Get rid of them and watch car crime go through the roof.

1. There is no accepted wisdom of air support.
2. Car crime going through the roof? What do you do fly over peoples houses and drop immobilisers and vehicle security devices down on the locals?. The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few.
3.If that's the best two arguments you can come up wirh then don't civilianise....get rid.

Criminals learn to adapt. Hook and Cane for instance. There are still plenty of motorists out there who leave their vehicles unattended with the keys in at petrol stations, on frosty mornings while car warms up etc.

Experience...
 

Zorab64,

Could you explain to me the meaning of "appropriate experience" in your last post?
I'll give you credit for previous sorties involving hovering behind clouds over Belfast at 1500'....:ok:

But as for hiding behind trees and trawling well known safe low level routes over Boscombe Down or N.Ireland... I'm not sure where that holds any distinct advantage ( in a modern ASU) over a well disiplined 2000 hour civvy trained pilot, well aversed in operating at low level in poor weather under sometimes intense commercial pressure and to un-prepared landing sites (HEMS or VIP/charter). Familiarity in intense night ops will probably only ever come from serving with a civvy police unit.

Beleive it or not, this is a genuine question and not a dig at ex mil guy's. :=

paarmo

You're just embarrassing yourself now, it really is time to stop posting. There are threads that you can make a contribution to, I'm sure; but this isn't one of them.

If you're just trying to provoke a response then well done, it's worked, so you may leave now, job done.

What a crock
 

Paarmo,

I find your comments ill informed to say the least, were you bullied as a child by an Air Observer, Or have you just failed selection:eek::eek:

If what you say is true then no car under 10 years old gets stolen:p

If you believe that I'll tell you another....................Father Christmas IS real!!


As was said above if you wanted to provoke a debate, well done, but I seriously think your time here is done.

by the way I'm biased, just like J.A.F.O i'm JAFO.

Further to "The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few."

Very few?! Er, no. Lots and lots actually. Retro quite correctly mentions hook and cane but in most of the areas I currently fly, new cars are being stolen using keys taken from simple break ins. These lovely new vehicles (all fully immobiliser and alarm fitted) are then often used to transport away goods from the house in question. In my own current experience, when air support is overhead on these incidents, these vehicles and goods are always recovered (and suspects arrested). Without air support, they usually get away.

Ok, dont jump down my throat......

But, do we need £3m+ helicopters for the Police? granted probably the Met and the biggest of citys like Manchester etc....
But what about places like Yorkshire and that? I'm not saying Yorkshire dont deserve a nice new expensive twin etc its a vast vast area to cover I just look at some of what the U.S Police, and other countrys manage with, 500's 206's AS350's etc..... (and im sure a 500E could get places as faster or faster!) and think either how many more we could have flying or how much money could be saved??

Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to fly EC135's and MD902's and envy the guys who do, but the heli's that are used solely for Police, i.e. not HEMS/Police joint use, do they really need to be £3m+ machines?
could a nice 500E or AS350 not do the same job around the more rural countys?

The camera systems seem so advanced these days the pilots dont seem to need to go really low to get good coverage or pursue a stolen vehicle, most seem to be quite high to get a good field of view and see the road ahead......

I dont know, its just more of an opinion/question really so dont attack me ppruners! But curious for your thoughts!
:ok:

R-44: singles not an option for police ops- not allowed!

R-44 as well as the thing about twins over cities, you have to consider the weight of the camera, nitesun, nav computer ANPR kit and all the other stuff then add three or more crew (sorry, pilot and two 'passengers') and it starts to add up, only 135/145 and 902 will do.:ok:

Yeah, I know there not allowed, my thoughts are why are they not allowed? how bigger a benefit is it in some areas of the UK to have a twin over a single?
Like I say the U.S manage fine with there singles doing mostly the same job for around 1/3 of the cost.....
I cant see why (if its only used by Police and not HEMS) that all the gear couldnt be put in 500,206,350 etc.....

Just my 2 cents.....

Ahhh yes, thats one very valid point actually.

I know they carry alot of kit, how much more kit and crew do the UK Police carry than the U.S etc. The U.S police see to have a nightsun and thermal imaging gear and extra comms.

It came as a big suprise to me but most US units don't carry the latest FLIR/Wescam kit, the new generation stuff is much heavier and if you have a look inside both US and European Police aircraft the kit is mounted in a much more substantial way. The US all tend to use Police officers as Pilots and cut the crew to two. Like most UK units we fly at nearly max weight. We have cut our kit to as low as it will go. Believe me there's enough work for two officers and no way could one officer/observer do more than do a missing person search. Anything more you need two observers.

Yeah I can see theres a big work load for the crew on UK ships and obviosuly theres no way of cutting that down, I never actually meant chop the crew down, I was just trying to work out what the U.S crew have to operate and between how many next to the UK crew.

No its a fair point, I didnt realise most of the UK Police units were operating at nearly MAUW, I thought there would be plenty of power in hand to be honest. And if thats the case theres the first and perhaps only argument for the twins, no point debating for something that cant do the job right!

I know the flir system is invaluable as is all the other kit onboard.
I wonder why they havent tried making the kit lighter, the Japenese are pretty good at that sort of stuff, Technology moves on in leaps and bounds, I mean a 50" LCD TV now weighs less than an old 21"!
I know what you mean about the mounting of it all, its like a control room on its own for the rear observer in the back, little room for much else.

Its a fair point, I think the UK and the U.S are very very different enviroments to fly in, personally I've only flown in Florida for a little go but all the straight roads and highways etc must make it much easier to Navigate vehicle chases and such.

Thanks for your thoughts :ok:

Re the kit question and single v light twin debate.

Several years ago, I flew some US Secret Service blokes on a recce for a official visit. The aircraft was an EC135T1 with a fairly "standard" UK police fit. They brought a ropy-looking, small 25 cent digital camera but they put it away when they saw what we could do for them in the imagery sense.

The Americans told us that they usually went to places in the States that only had a few bino-equipped B206-class machines and expected the same in the UK. They were knocked out by our "quality over quantity" approach it what would now be seen as an older aircraft.

However, I agree that the new equipment does come at a price in weight.

Coming back to the R-44 issue, anyone checked out the Robbo website and downloaded the brochure for the R-44 Raven II police helicopter? Might be interesting.

"Technology moves on in leaps and bounds"

R44bloke - quite true. Sadly the CAA, EASA, and ECUK's design department move on in small, stumbling steps documented to the Nth degree and desperately trying to keep up with what the customer wants. You also need to be aware that, if it isn't made in batches of thousands then it is ludicrously expensive. Police Air Support in the UK is where it is today because we have had the last 20 odd years to find out what does and doesn't work, what is and isn't safe and what's just to damn big or heavy to carry. Which brings us back to the experience thing again.

Paarmo - had a chance to check the figures and I was wrong - should have read 8 landings and 14 arrests - 8th April 08 to 8th April 09.

Police Staff Vs Police Officers
 

PAARMO,

what you have to think about before you make sweeping statements about the cost of Police staff versus the cost of Police Officers.

Police officers £35k P.A. yes expensive I'll give you that, however Police staff, starting at around 22k basic, on top of that they will get 20% shift allowance plus weekend enhancements, some pay double time on sundays, more annual leave days than Police officers.:eek:

Suddenly Police Staff are not that cheap. Now take into account the fact that Police officers are on duty 24/7 they can be kept on after shift, they can be contacted at home at any time and told to get to work. Police Officers have a stringent disipline code covering, quite rightly Alcohol levels and drug use.:=

Whilst the Police do their level best to save money, civilianization is not always the cheapest options, many departments that have been civilianized are now going back to Police Officers.

Having spent many years flying Police ops here's my two penn'orth.

Real bobbies would rather be talking to real bobbies in the aircraft. Plus there were times when we landed and an arrest was made by the (real) bobby from the aircraft. My personal feeling is that Police units should be staffed by members of Her Majesty's Constabulary. But that's just my personal feeling.

And who is this pie person? How dare you! http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m...2637784011.jpg

Who is this PAARMO bloke??? Immobilisers have made things 10 times worse up here. If they wanted a car in the past, they hot wired it, they then moved on to hook and cane burglaries to get keys. That got too time consuming, so now the official name is confrontational thefts. The latest MO is to kick the front door in and beat up the homeowner until they produce the keys. Gender doesn't matter. It is not worth owning a high powered sports car around here, they WILL have it eventually. Ask my neighbours. You do not know what you are talking about.
1 v 2 observers?? I'll tell you what, show me somebody who can keep the camera on a car doing 100mph through the narrow streets of anfield AND keep up a street by street commentary whilst reading the A to Z AND change radio frequencies when going from area to area and I will buy that person a lot of beer and ask him/her to join my flight. Some stuff can be done with one, when it REALLY matters you need two..... end of story. :ok:
PS. I would like to think that I could do an observers job to an acceptable standard if I stopped piloting, I am not a bobby. We have landed to arrest twice in 5 years.

Jayteeto - I am sure you could but how much is that because you have been part of that team as a pilot for a number of years and so have started to 'think' like a bobby. Would you feel you could do the job to an equally acceptable standard as a newly recruited civvy?

Agreed absolutely, but at the moment I would not be able to apply if I couldn't pilot anymore. So is a comprimise needed??

not suggesting common sense and applying 'best man for the job' theory surely!!:rolleyes:

Yorkshire
 

Just thought I'd point out (to defend) Yorkshire. You may be interested to know that West Yorkshire is quite busy. The busiest with only one helicopter maybe! And not so much rural.

Yorkshire Busiest
 

I seem to recall this being written recently, think it was PA news that gave the official heads up that West Yorkshire's aircraft was the busiest in the UK and with only one aircraft a 902.

Since it was PA news that started this thread, he may wish to comment on this one.

Car crime methods evolve !
 

Years ago - 1970's - Ford Cortina / Escort - 1 key would start just about any of them. No damage. ;)

A few years on - Austin Metro - steering column lock more difficult to "jiggle" ( more pins in the tumbler ) so a new method evolved of bodging a screwdriver hole in the door skin to access the door locking rods, and then "scaffing" the steering column lock and using the screwdriver to turn the switch box ( minus it's lock ) and start the engine.

Car manufacturers then beefed up the door locks with steel re-inforcing plates, and introduced micro-chips in the key fob linked to an immobiliser so that door wouldn't unlock and the engine would not start without the correct key being present.
This resulted in more of the "Car-Key" burglaries where the keys are stolen first - either from the owner directly, at a petrol station forecourt, stationary at traffic lights ( "jamming" ) from handbags / coat pockets etc., or by the hook & cane method through the owners letter box if keys are left in view, or even breaking into the owners house and searching for the keys or threatening the owner to hand them over.

What are car companies doing now ? - Introducing "biometric security" - where the owner / legitimate user will have to scan their thumb / finger print onto a dashboard reader. What will ( some ) car thieves do ? -
Likely knock the owner out and physically remove a finger or thumb ! :yuk:

Trust me this WILL happen - those who are out stealing high powered cars with these new security systems really don't care ! :\

Anyone got a MkII Cortina for sale :confused:

Now - what's' all that got to do with civillianising the DUEO job at West Mids ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that.
Whoateallthe pies tells us that Police Officers on the ground like to talk to Police Officers in the air. A spurious argument as they were probably sent to the job in the first place by a civilian in the Control Room and as it is a disciplined service you get told to talk to whoever is in the best position to see what is happening whether you like talking to that person or not.
Therealpieboy increases the wages of the civilian air observer but fails to mention that any new civilian staff can be employed on whatever wages and conditions are deemed correct for the post.Unlike Police Officers whose wages are centrally negotiated. It may be in more prosperous times that the wages being offered are more than a Police Officer's but that is the market force and was not the question in the first place.
It boils down to the fact that there is no reason why a suitably qualified civilian cannot be employed as an air observer , gain experience alongside an experienced crew and then continue to do the job until his pension. ( a lot less than a Police pension )
If you want him to land and arrest people you could make him a Special who has more powers than these "Mickey Mouse" uniform carriers I see wandering about holding hands and chatting to each other as if they are on a walk to church.
Can't remember who said it but no I have never been frightened by an air observer , in fact only one person has ever frightened me at all and he is now in a secure hospital and will continue to be there until he is at least 75. Neither have I been turned down as an air observer. I have only ever been turned down for one job in my life and I still get my revenge by making sure I park my shopping trolley as far away from the shop on the car park as possible.

A valid reason
 

Paarmo, I didn't want to bite but you are a very funny and obviously brave man who deals really well with his 'issues'. Anyway, sorry to get personal but the real reason civilian observers (ab-initio) would not work is that they would have little or no forces/service type work ethic and would be rubbish. Classy argument hey?

We have visited all this before but it won't go away because senior police officers and authorities see reform of Air Support Units as a CV ticking tool. Cynical? Yes.

A question I asked before is 'Would the aircraft still benefit from CAA easements and police operating techniques etc. if manned entirely by civilians?' Obviously those in power can change the rules if need be but the general public have come to expect the police policing. PCSOs and civvy JAFOs? Get real.

Obviously it's in some close-to retiring observers interests for this to go ahead. Cynical? Yes.

Car crime
 

"Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that."

Paarmo, what would you rather, your car nicked off the drive or stabbed in the eye because you would not hand over your keys or your house ransacked in the search for them?

The latter sounds worse to me.

I bit, didn't I?

Having civvies as Observers is no different to having PCSOs replacing PCs, teaching assistants replacing teachers, custody officers replacing prison officers and 'traffic officers' replacing police traffic officers. It is all dumbing down by this government of skilled roles.
I have no doubt that that they all do reasonable jobs but personally I would rather see a FULLY trained, experienced and capable person doing the roles.

Aerodynamik

I think that you'll find that those civilians currently employed in the role together with their pilot and air observer colleagues plus the officers that they support might take umbrage at the implication that they are not fully trained, experienced or capable.

I don't imagine any of them would advocate full civilianisation nor totally ab initio recruitment of observers directly from civvy street, either; but that does not mean that those currently in the role are not capable.

Regain...the fly was on the water and yes you took it but never fear the keep net is almost full.
JAFO ab initio ? Que?