The venerable Bell 47
 

Does anyone have any idea what the DOC for a UK based Bell 47 should be? Vague ballpark is fine. I know there are very few around now but a PPL friend of mine wants to get one.

I owned a G3B1 in UK a few years back so still have much info and know some of the aircraft still flying. Sorry, I'm not familiar with DOC ?

G MASH was for sale a while back but that might be well out of date(info I mean).

SPS, thanks for coming back. DOC is Direct Operating Costs: i.e Fuel and maintenance expressed as an hourly rate. Basically all costs that are incurred by actually flying the aircraft. eg the cost of an engine overhaul after 1500 hours can be expressed as an hourly cost.

Not included in here is stuff that you have to pay annually anyway like (usually) insurance, space in a hangar, cost of finance, fat corporate pilot and so on.

I know a DOC can be a bit academic if you buy an aircraft with one hour to go to a major overhaul but it is a useful tool for long term cost projections.

Any info gratefully received. You can e-mail me if you want to keep it private.

I would recommend your friend look very closely at the status of the blade grip problem with that A/C. I don't know enough about the status to give specific information.

I do not have the details, but the AD issued has effectively grounded much of the 47 fleet until operators can get the replacements, which are (as I understand it) both scarce and expensive.

There are some who believe the AD was yet another Knee-Jerk reaction.

EAA Thinks Emergency AD on Bell 47s Premature

EAA President and CEO Tom Poberezny has appealed directly to FAA Administrator Jane Garvey to rescind Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2000-18-51, which has effectively grounded more than 75 percent of registered Bell 47 helicopters in the United States since it was issued on August 31, 2000.

In his Nov. 22, 2000, letter to the Administrator, Poberezny criticized the FAA decision to issue the Emergency AD. "In the rush to produce the Emergency AD, proper public reviews and research was not undertaken by the FAA Rotorcraft Directorate," he said. As a result, some 970 out of 1,250 registered Bell 47s have been, EAA feels, unnecessarily grounded.

The Emergency AD was issued after two accidents that occurred outside the U.S. were attributed to cracked rotor grips. The Emergency AD mandates a 200-hour interval, repetitive Non-Destructive Inspection (NDI) of all Bell 47 main rotor grips, as well as the retirement of grips after 1,200 hours of service.

In one of the accidents, which occurred in Canada in 1998, a main rotor blade grips failed at about 100 feet and the Bell 47-G2 crashed. The Canadian Aviation Investigation Report (#A98O0214), which was released on June 22, 2000, found that the grip (which had 207 hours since new) failed at the threaded area.

Further, extensive pitting, determined to be a result of the manufacturing process, was found in the area of the thread roots and adjacent surfaces of the threads. As a result of its investigation, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada did not change the 300-hour inspection or the 2,500/5,000-hour retirement intervals.
Because AD 2000-18-51 is an Emergency AD, there was no NPRM, and the FAA never requested comments or blade grip-usage data from U.S. operators.

The Emergency AD cites a 70 percent failure rate of these grips, yet a search of Service Directory Reports in the U.S. shows no failures and only a few cracked grips. FAA’s AD author said the field service data was from Australia.

Based on industry and public concerns over the Bell 47 Emergency AD, EAA requests:

1) Emergency AD No. 2000-18-51 and the AD’s Final Rule (Docket # 2000-SW-35-AD) be rescinded until the FAA applies U.S. Bell 47 historical data to its decision process.

2) The Rotorcraft Directorate hold regional public meetings to address the Bell 47 blade grip concerns.

3) The comment period for the Bell 47 AD, Final Rule, be extended for 60 days, so that EAA can ensure that all Bell 47 owners/operators are informed of the final rule and that they have an adequate period to comment to it. EAA mailed the Final Rule to owner/operators on Nov. 27, 2000.

In the 50-year history of the Bell 47, there has never been a U.S. accident as a result of a cracked blade grip, according to information EAA and other owners/operators have gathered. What's more, there has never been a cracked grip found during the prior blade grip 2,500-hour (wood blades) or 5,000-hour (metal blades) retirement life and inspection process.

"EAA does not understand the need for an Emergency AD based on two accidents that occurred outside the country, given that the U.S, Bell 47 blade grip shelf life and inspection process has had a flawless history," said Poberezny. "EAA believes that the Rotorcraft Directorate has acted hastily and without obtaining necessary input from the operators of the aircraft."

EAA has taken the lead in attempting to bridge the information gap that exists regarding the issuance of Emergency AD 2000-18-51.

On Nov. 17, EAA mailed an in-depth survey to all 1,132 registered Bell 47 owner/operators to determine blade grip history on aircraft maintained per FAA regulations and procedures.

As of Nov. 29, EAA has received 40 completed surveys. The key answers were (1) The FAA never contacted them to determine U.S. blade grip usage history and (2) Not one owner/operator has ever heard of a cracked blade grip on Bell 47s maintained by FAA-certified mechanics.

Don't know the current status, sorry.


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Marc

[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 30 January 2001).]

MBJ, friend of mine had one for a while but purchased a turbine and reckoned it was cheaper to run. Buy a Hughes300 cheaper to run more reliable. 47 starter motor about £900, 300 about £250. 47 uses about 18g fuel an hour, 269B 9g 300C 11g. Plus the they still make the bits for 300's, or try an Enstrom.

If you want to play MASH thats fine but don't fly into a headwind !!!!

Thanks guys. I'd forgotten about the AD!

Perhaps B47 more useful as a greenhouse than an aviation device for the moment. :)



[This message has been edited by MBJ (edited 31 January 2001).]

MBJ

Yes, it seems so obvious now but I just didn't get there - DOC over here is Dept of Conservation (not the heli pilot's best friend by all accounts) and I couldn't get past that!

Sad to hear about the grip thing, its a good old bus and I hope they sort it. Really enjoyed mine after 22, it's the best way to learn how to use a throttle ! I'll find out what it cost p/h and send it to you.

I beleive that FAST at Thruxton are (maybe now were!) running one for training. There are one or two owners in the HCGB that might help too.

I believe Alan Mann helicopters at Fairoaks Airport in Chobham, Surrey still operate at least one Bell 47. Worth trying a call to them for the DOC. Good luck

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Contact Professor Charles Lumsden at the University of Toronto. He oversee a total and complete website devoted only to the Bell 47. If he can't give you the information you are seeking he will turn you on to somebody who can. He can also give you the total story on the AD.

His email address is [email protected]

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The Cat

Thanks again.

Lu, that website is all about broadband service and nothing on B47, but thanks anyway.

To: MBJ

Sorry about that. Try this

http://vortex.med.utoronto.ca/B47/links.html

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The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 02 February 2001).]

Just to continue with the general theme of B47, a very good article on new life for old Bells in this month's 'Pacific Wings' Mag.

Possible good news for Bell 47 people
 

The FAA tentatively plans to revise AD 2000-18-51,
...probably with a superceding action. Actions that were proposed by the FAA and tentatively agreed upon by the participants at the January 29-30, 2000 meeting include the following:
1. Eddy current should be the required inspection method in the superceding AD.
2. Operators should be encouraged to perform an eddy current inspection as soon as possible even though time credit may be given for a dye penetrant inspection that was conducted under the original AD.
3. The AMOC retirement life of 2500 hours should be retained until parts supply meets demand. At that point the life of the part should be reduced to 1200 hours. (Bell Helicopter recommends all grips be retired at 1200 hours).
4. The FAA will revisit the 1998 Canadian accident by contacting Bell and the Canadian authorities. Additional documented information that has a bearing on this issue will be considered during future actions.
5. The FAA will consider any additional data that might support changing the inspection interval to 300 hours.
6. The superceding AD will require reporting of cracked grips to the FAA.
7. The FAA and industry groups will assemble a list of NDI inspection facilities that can perform the new eddy current inspections.
The FAA hopes that this information provides some additional background for the Bell 47 operators. Progress reports are planned as new information becomes available.
For Further Information Contact Mr. Carl Mittag, Manager, FAA Rotorcraft Certification Office, Federal Aviation Administration, Fort Worth, Texas, 76193-0170; telephone: (817) 222-5170; e-mail [email protected]

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Marc

New info for Bell 47 operators
 

EAA on Bell 47 Grip AD

A new Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) regarding Bell 47 helicopter blade grips is a positive first step toward an ultimate solution to keep these vintage rotorcraft operating, according to EAA.
The FAA released the new NPRM on March 29, to update provisions put in place by an Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) last August. Those provisions essentially grounded all Bell 47 operations, as those helicopter owners could not meet the stringent inspection rules for rotor blade grips they required ("Bells Losing Their Grips?" 09-06-00, ANN).
The new NPRM addresses some of those concerns, specifically expansion of the inspection intervals; development of an Airworthiness Concerns Process Guide for the Bell 47; and creation of a new database on the helicopters' blade grips to assist in future rulemaking.
"Overall, the NPRM is a vast improvement over the previous Bell 47 blade grip ADs," said Earl Lawrence, EAA Vice President of Government and Industry Relations. "We're all moving in the right direction, but there are still some key issues that have not been addressed." During the NPRM public comment period, which ends May 29, EAA plans to submit that the NPRM does not address the serious shortage of replacement parts available for the Bell 47, as well as the lack of process to obtain reasons for blade-grip failure.
EAA, which itself flies a Bell 47, had called for less stringent inspection intervals and more realistic times for retirement of the rotor blade grips than called for in the original FAA AD. EAA cited rules established in Australia and Canada, where Bell 47 accidents served as the basis of the AD research. Aviation authorities in both of those nations, using the same data as American officials, concluded longer blade-grip inspection and retirement intervals were suitable.
EAA's involvement in the Bell 47 issue led to a summit meeting at Fort Worth, Texas, in January to discuss the issue. The meeting, held at FAA's Rotorcraft Directorate, included representatives from EAA, Helicopter Association International (HAI) and Bell Helicopter Textron. At that time, EAA continued to emphasize that the AD regarding Bell 47 rotor blade grips, released on Aug. 31, 2000, was produced without proper public research and review, with subsequent research refuting many of the factors cited to produce the AD. EAA became interested in the issue because the Bell 47 qualifies as both a vintage and warbird aircraft. Since entering the active fleet in 1949, Bell 47 helicopters have served both general aviation and the military extremely well.
More than 1,000 of these models continue to operate in the U.S., where there never has been an accident or incident attributed to blade grip failure. Issuance of the AD in August effectively grounded the Bell 47 fleet, causing increased economic hardship for those operators. The problem is compounded since replacement parts are not available, with no plans to begin manufacturing them to meet heightened demand.
Bell 47 operators may submit their comments to the FAA Rotorcraft Directorate via e-mail at [email protected] until May 29, 2001. After reviewing all comments, FAA will issue its final rulings. "We strongly urge Bell 47 owners and operators to become involved and submit their comments to FAA promptly," Lawrence said. "Their involvement is a key element in how the final rule will look."
FMI: www.eaa.org

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Marc

Bell 47 G2 model wanted
 

I am looking for a die cast or metal model of a Bell 47 G2. Can someone direct me to the right shop or the right website ?
Many thanks . :)

Pat,

There was a very nice condition 'full-size' one at space-coast aviation for $86,000 - any good? Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Doc

There is a web site dedicated to the Bell, the url is a bit long if you run a search for the Bell 47 you'll find it.
On there are listed some 47 models and alot of other good info for the 47 lover.
Happy flying

Magumba :

Do you mean this one ?

Beel 47 web page

As a related matter, Maisto ( http://www.maisto.com ) do a range of die-cast models which include some helicopters.

Check here for more details.

B47\ float endorsment
 

anyone know of a place to get a float endorcement on a bell 47 in southern QLD australia or northern nsw.

I'm not sure of this, but I doubt there is such a thing as a float endorsement. Not in Canada anyway. It was part of the training given by individual operators who used floats. Operating a helicopter on floats is not much different than on skids. The floats get in the way of some of the downdrafting air from the main rotors and so lessen some of the lift capability in the hover.You won't get as much off the ground in no- wind situation and cruise speed will be less. If you do start the machine floating free on water, you'll do a couple of lazy revolutions before tail rotor gets up speed and authority is sufficient to hold you straight.
A bit obvious I know, but try not to land on sharp objects as putting patches on is time consuming as they are always on the bottom.
I've also heard that uneven air pressures in your floats can seriously enhance the possibility of ground reasonance in certain types, but I have no experience of that. I can tell you it definitely does with uneven tyre pressures in certain types.
No reason you can't do running takeoffs on water if too heavy to hover.This was done on long ferry flights when loaded up with spares etc and fuel was burned off en route so no problem at the other end with hovering.
Can't think of anything else useful to tell you as I think you can just go out and fly it. Hope this helps.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: ditchy ]</p>

Ditchy,

Unfortunately, CASA lives in a different age, and float endorsements are a type by type requirement. We've only just (last week) had the requirement rescinded for individual sling endorsements for any helicopter &gt;2750kg. Next move is to get rid of the 10 hour endorsement requirement for &gt;2750kg <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Try calling Heli Reef on Hamilton Island. Ask for Brad. they have B47 on floats and an instructor over at shute harbour. Sorry I don't have their phone number on me.
Oscar

thanks oscar but i was hoping to get one closer than that.

Ditchy,

"Operating a helicopter on floats is not much different than on skids."

Oh really. And running take-offs on water with Ma Bell's standard float package - right!

And how did you find the floats affected the handling when entering autorotation? Better still, how did you find doing touch down autos onto the water - much the same as skids on grass, I suppose.

Oh, and JE, while I agree that the individual sling endorsements requirement was gross overkill, I wouldn't rush to treat float endorsements the same way.

I did running takeoffs on water on a what I assume were Bell approved floats on a regular basis doing the long ferry flights required, as did the other pilots with the dozen or so helicopters we had on floats in my company.

I had one complete and sudden engine failure in a Bell 47 on floats. I don't recall any "difference" in autorotative entry or flight either on that day or during the training I did. On arrival at the ground [not water]I got the landing right knowing that a run on meant probably rolling the machine over. In my opinion any competent helicopter pilot would have no trouble mastering the minor differences that floats make to the handling characteristics of any helicopter approved for floats.

These slight variations were treated as common sense airmanship in the country I was operating and were included in the company training. Perhaps in your domocile, 4Dogs, the government does not credit you with either enough intelligence to see the differences or ability to handle them. All I can say is that in Canada, where extensive float operations have been carried out since the early fifties, no one was required to pass a government endorsement requirement for floats and personally I don't recall any incidents where lack of any such requirement caused problems.

Your suggestion that these things can't or shouldn't be done just shows your insularity. If you are indeed flying floats, I would suggest you get in contact with people in other parts of the world and broaden your horizons. You might learn something.

Well said ditchy,
Don't bother trying to argue with the canuks about water........

If the Bell 47 is anything like the 205 in auto entry, be prepared with a ****load of forward cyclic on auto entry to avoid a big surprise!

Also caution the adverse roll with yaw.

Otherwise, good fun, in my limited experience of float ops.

Looking for Bell 47 info
 

Hi all,


Looking for a web site/s with specs and general info on the Bell 47G-3B1.

* Specs
*cockpit/ac photos
*stories
*how they fly

Did a google search and waded through things for 45 odd mins before deciding someone out there may be able to save me poor aching eyes................

Ta ;)

Try this link and go from there. Bell 47

Fly one if you get the chance - the Bell 47 is a wonderful classic.

Bell 47D-1 Check list
 

I am teaching a student to fly in a Bell 47D-1. His past instructor did not use a check list. I made up a check list from recommended daily inspection from the original flight manual and added items that needed to be checked. Does anyone have a checklist from a flight school who uses Bell 47's? If anyone has any please e-mail to [email protected].

I have flown in numerous makes and models and Fly a MD 500C every day. The Bell 47 has to be the best training aircraft I have flown. Any comments welcome.

Skycop9


:rolleyes:

I agree with you statement. If you can fly a B47 and KH4, you can fly anything...Try www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au for your Check list.

If you still have no luck, I forward you our own ops one.

Cheers

Skycop9,

How does it handle compared to the S300C. On my check ride oral Mario B. described the Bell 47 as "a man's machine." He said it's a good machine if you only fly it 2-3 hours a day, I guess it can be high maintence (like a wife).

Do you think it would be accepted by primary students ?

Ken

Ken,

It flies alot like the 300C, however, it is a little more stable. It is longer and hovering autos are better than the 300c. Autos are alot slower. Mario B. was right. It is a "man's helicopter"

skycop9::
:D

WLM.

I tried the two web sites with no luck. If you email me I will provide you with my address and postage for the cost of the mailing of the check list.

Thanks,

Skycop9

that's why i fly the bell 47!

ive got a checklist for a G3B, i can email it at the end of the week. im not near a scanner at the mo.

Check list
 

Skycop-
I agree with all comments above I am lucky to be a ble to fly a G3B1 out of Gloucester, flies very well, auto's are no problems at all. Looking to Go to Allan Manns to see what his hire rates are.
I have a copy of a G3B1. If you e-mail my colleague he owns Dutch Country Helicopters of Pennsylvania where we use 3 D1's for training, he will help you with the check list bits you require, his address is [email protected].
Bell 47 have there own web page and merchandise if your interested Click here: Bell 47 Helicopter Association
Safe Flying

Darren

Darren,

Went to the bell 47 fly in last week. Could not take the students aircraft as the transponder and radio are out. It had to be one of the best airshows that I have been to. I would recommend that anyone interested in helicopters attend the event. The helicopter museum was interesting. I was able to hook up with a pilot who had the Bell 47D1 check list. Thanks for the help.

Skycop9;)

Bell 47 G3B1
 

am operating a Bell 47 G3B1 with tt 1400, does anyone know of this type of machine with such low TT, has never been rolled up.

Those hours seem awfully low for a 47. Has it always been a private machine or has somebody put the m/r on a diet ??