outofwhack,

Parachutes were worn in the Whirlwind 10 when going to higher altitudes, it was to do with the possibility of an aircraft fire and the low rate of descent in autorotation.

The Flight Reference Cards gave the abandonment drill to be followed (something along the lines of: Open windows, control frictions full on, disconnect mic/tel leads, undo harness, sit on window sill, facing inwards and roll out backwards from aircraft window).

There was a note at the bottom of that page which worried me quite a lot. It said "Warning. Objects jettisoned from the aircraft in autorotation may go through the main rotor disc." :ooh:

As the pilot, I can't think of another phase of flight when I would want to jump out.....most of us said we would give the cyclic a kick to the left, to try to roll the aircraft way from us.

OOW,in answer to your Q about FTH,think of it this way;in an ideal world,ideal engine, on the ground at full power(non turbo/supercharged)( full throttle) you would see a manifold pressure of 29-30"/0 lbs,ie static ambient presure; real life- about 27-28"/-1/2 lbs due to the configuration/losses in the induction system. On top of that, you have a transmission limitation which ,may be 26"/-2lbs,which means you shouldn`t actually use more than that.
Now, as you climb at,say 25", you will need to progressively open the throttle to maintain 25", until at some point the throttle is fully open,or you reach your time limit at max power,and reduce to MCP ,perhaps 23". This may be a transmission limit or engine limit. If you continue to climb,maintaining that limit(23"), you will reach an altitude where the throttle is again fully open, and if you go higher still, the MP will start to decrease. The throttle is fully open ,so there is no restricting of airflow into the carb,which is also doing it`s best to maintain the correct mixture. You can of course still climb,but even with full throttle, MP will be reducing; you may now be only able to maintain airpeed/height at one power setting- more likely you will be anoxic !!
I`m reminded of the Test pilot at Boscombe who was tasked to do a height climb in a Sioux,with oxygen, parachute,etc,who wrote that a stopwatch was irrelevant, a calendar would have been more useful!
2" of MP is approximately 2050 ft in altitude, so you can work the figures for the appropriate aircraft.
If you have turbo/supercharging ,you abide by the same principles,particularly
in helos, since you will have a transmission limit to maintain, but you will still reach an altitude where the throttle will be fully open ,and the boost starts decreasing......don`t forget the calendar, oxygen, blankets etc....Syc:ok:

don't forget the placard thats in the 47 about manifold pressures for 200 hp at various temps and altitudes...that technically becomes your limiting factor. since your transmission is rated for 200 hp of input hp, if you pull 25" MP at 5000' you'll actually be using more than 200 hp from the engine (you're into the 65 hp of spare power for which the engine was de-rated in the first place). i've never heard of anyone worrying too much about that MP placard, especially since the 200 hp limit is not actually stated as a limitation in any of the FM's that i've read.

So do you mean they have physically derated an engine from 265 HP to 200HP with a placard?

I always thought there might be some kind of mechanical stop that does it.

How is an engine physically de-rated?

i don't think i said it was physically de-rated...just rated at less than its full potential so there is some power in the bank for performance loss with altitude. for example, if the engine is putting out 200 hp and working at 75% of its possible output to hit the MP redline, there will be a point at which its working at 100% of capacity to deliver that 200 hp at some altitude/temp. you should never actually be putting 265 hp through the drivetrain unless you're exceeding redlines. its the same idea as the c-20 in a jetranger being 420 hp but only delivering 317 (i think) to the tranny. without that power reserve it would be like...well it would be like a jetbox with a c-18 i guess...(thankfully i never had to experience that)

I bought the last set of grips from Helicopters Spares inc. out of Pennsilvania.
PM me and I'll give you the contact info. He is an excellent source for 47 parts.

Grips
 

outofwhack.. I may know someone who maybe interested in them. PM me your details and I will pass them on, new there around $6000. PMA made here in the states and easy to get... :ok:

Bell 47
 

Hi all,

I've tried Google and not had much luck so I thought I'd delve into the wealth of collective knowledge (no pun intended) on the forum.

Highest hours, and or the oldest operational Bell47. I'm looking for the fleet leader.

Any info?

Thanks

Taff

Theres a pretty old one based at hawarden, im afriad i dont have the specifics of it though, give Hields a ring, use to be one of their machines! Sorry cant be of more help!

HC

oldest 47 still flying
 

morning all
google heli-Muster in Aus, they might just have the oldest 47 with the highest number of flying hours on it
blue skies
NNB

Give Joey Rhodes a try at the Bell 47 Helicopter Association.


www.bell47helicopterassociation.org


LM

The oldest B47?
 

I have been fortunate to have flown a fully restored B47B model back in the 90's, I believe it was the oldest helicopter still flying at the time. It was owned by the late Doug Daigle President of Tridair Helicopters, John Wayne Airport, California USA. It has now been donated & retired to the air & space museum in Washington DC.

Hi, Guy's
There's mine G-BFYI 47G-3B-1 ~5570 hours, made in 1965, mind you, we are just about to get it flyable again after brand new engine, gearbox and tail rotor blades (been a long and expensive year).
Kevin.

i've got a few hours on a g-2 with about 12500 hours on it...i'm sure that's relatively few in the 47 world though...

I knew you'd come up with some leads. Thanks all.:ok:

Taff

Bell 47 J
 

Any thoughts ?

Are these to old and rare to be practical in the UK. Are they thirstly and heavy. Does it really make a diffecrence to have the larger engine. Spares ? and are the rotables common with the other 47's :confused:

Try this website for 47 info.

www.bell47helicopterassociation.org

Here's a picture of one taken at Stapleford
http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1031640F.jpg

Bell 47 Tail Rotor Blades
 

Hey Guys

Looking for a set of tail rotor blades for a Bell 47, anyone got a set to sell. Even a short time pair will do as we're getting very low on ours.

PM me if you can help

Cheers
ET

Try www.scottshelicopterservice.com. If they can't help, they should
know someone who can.

Fair comment, but there is the small matter of checking of ALL of the relative AD's, and performing a full 100 hrly inspection, even without any other inspection that may be due.

A 100 hrly will take at least two man days on a '47 machine that has absolutely no problems.

If it was an initial into country C of A inspection then in OZ that would be at least $6000.00

You may have done very well.
tet

Yes
I like your signature
Like OW:{

OOW. I have passed your last email onto a company that deals with 47's near me. Once I hear back I will let you know their thoughts... If that helps.. :ok:

How long is a piece of string?

Couple of questions.................

What was the experience level of the person who put it back together?

Helicopters in total?

On the type? - They are getting a bit "rare" these days.

And how recently? See above.

Do you think 70 hours is excessive? The helicopter would still have to have been released as serviceable, not just "put back together" otherwise you would have done it yourself.

More info would be a help.

With regard to your "maintenance release" if you read the regulations, as the aircraft was effectively disassembled and shipped somewhere. It may no longer be in force.

Read Reg 47 from a CASA viewpoint!

So you've had the 47 put back together and are now moaning about a lack of useful answers in relation to costs?:confused:

BTW Removal of blades, head, mast, skids etc is hardly what I'd call 'slightly disassembled'

Bellb47
 

Try a peter garside he has a couple for sale I think his web site is www.peterstoys.com

Bell 47 hire wanted, UK
 

I need to get recurrent on the Bell 47,anyone know if there is a machine & TRE in the UK or Europe? Thanks

Yes we have one at our school. Based in Chester area, about to be features in Todays Pilot magazine! PM for details(cos I work there and dont want to get in trouble for advertising!!)

Hi, Mine (g-bfyi) will be ready in few weeks (just coming out of total overhaul) if you want.
Regards
Kevin.

I think Kevin might be able to point you in the direction of a couple of FEs too...

j that wasnt advertising was it? lol

Wiling to Swap an hour plus or so in my 47 for some time in something different, to get it on my log book...open to offers. Can sort out FE for the 47 if required in return...
Kevin.

I started my 47 today in colder conditions than I usually do and the clutch woudnt accelerate the blades much over 60-100rpm (guess).

I didnt try dropping the throttle to let it fully engage as i thought the blades were turning too slow to allow the engine to keep going with clutch engaged.

I did try increasing the engine rpm higher than normal just to try get the blades going faster but no noticeable effect.

I stopped the engine and tried again and it engaged the rotor normally and I had a perfectly normal flight.

Should I be worried? I know some operators who warm their 47 with a propane burner on a cold morning but I thought that was purely for warming the engine. Can the clutch become lazy with cold temperatures?

OOW

I've often had to stop the engine & then restart, worked every time. I expect the clutch is getting a bit shiny, so I wouldn't be keen to ignore it for too long.

Thx Nigel,

This is the first time I have noticed this happen and nobody else has flown her in the last 100 tacho hours.

From your experience - can I expect this every time I start from now on or does it come and go (and hence take a while for the clutch to get worse).

I was hoping to take her on a long trip soon! Probably 20 flight hours, 10 starts.

OOW

I had this happen in a 47J in Tassie in mid winter, snow, ice, etc. The engineer deglazed the clutch after 1 week. In PNG & Darwin this happened in a 3B1 & in a G2 in Sydney; I can't remember how long we put up with it as it does get worse, probably 2 weeks at the most. I think it is caused by poor engagement technique such as incorrect throttle control. It doesn't take that long, winching up the trannie gives you access to the clutch.
I wouldn't like to suggest what you do as all this happened so long ago!

Send me a private msg if you like.

Bell 47 TRE
 

Mike Green senior if you can get him to travel

OOW
I'd like to suggest that when you lift the xmon that you also pull the freewheel and check it. The symptoms you descirbe fit perfectly to a freewheel failure soon.

How long since the xmon has been overhauled or a mid point (600hrly) done. One thing for sure is that if you cannot vouch for the exact hours then you should check it. The non negotiable exact time called up inspections are for the grips and freewheel on any '47.

see if it is a lighweight or medium weight freewheel. if it is either try to get a heavyweight unit installed.

you may be able to check the worksheet of the last xmon overhaul, to see if new rollers were installed or at least the actual miked measurements of the rollers and ring.

when the freewheel fails the engine goes straight to valve bounce speed, if you are lucky the fan and or fan belts don't take out any of the flight controls and you descend immediately. it is a (VERY) frightening and disorientating sound.

But as Nigel says it may just be the clutch which could be because of a loose retaining nut, which means check it straight away afore you wreck your fan drive.
tet

Outofwhack,
I remember the first time it happened to me, very disconcerting, but in my case I was a long way from anywhere in the Canadian bush. Word from engineering was "anytime it happens, shut the engine down straight away, go inside and have a cup of coffee, wait about 10 minutes and try again".
The clutch always engaged normally second time around.

I'm going back to the 70's here so can't remember the exact conditions at which these things were done. This company had operated several 47s of different marks for fifteen years at that point, winter and summer, and had some very experienced guys maintaining them. I was around 47s for three years and never heard of any safety concern with this phenomenon nor can I recall any clutch problems which may have come because of it.

Also, for your info, below a certain temperature on moist days, on the first start of the day, we pulled one set of plugs [left or right, didn't matter] and put them in the oven to warm them. It made starting much easier as icing of the plugs was an occasional problem as well.

Ready , willing and able with mine, TRE and all!
Loosely descibed as south west of London.PM me.Cheers