Agusta A109
 

Can anyone tell me how many of the new AA-sponsored Air Ambulance 109s are in service now and where they're based? Is it Sloane that runs them?

One 109 Power at White Waltham and operated by Sloane Helicopters.

A109 power crash
 

Just read in the Bun that a 109 power has crashed somewhere near a school. Pilot was "Heroic". Well done Steve, must have been all those practice sessions in a floppy. Glad you're all OK, Blue for handling, red for site selection, remember the S's next time bloke.

P.S.
a form 5 is not a witch hunt, no, not at all, its just an investigation.

[This message has been edited by Mr.Proach (edited 19 June 2000).]

Whilst brunching at Waltham, waiting for a client, I heard the pilots Mayday over the club tannmoy. The crew may like to know that the WLAC ARV, full of concerned groundcrew, made a very impressive response to his brief Mayday call. As they sped off to the threshold of the RW in use, they weren't to know that the school was off-airfield:-)
Great news to hear that all aboard escaped. Any news about the cause....Sloane informant suggests FADEC problems..this is not the first Power to crash in such circumstances.

wrong what happened was,it had just come out of maintanance and they had replaced the swashplate scissors the wrong way around which overloaded the bolt,which snapped causing pitch control to be impossible.
They also found that the previous crash with Pete Barnes was caused by the same mistake.
All 109's are now being checked and both engineers at Sloane have been suspended nothing wrong with the Power.

Scarey!! but thanks for the explaination.

an ex vietnam pilot once told me if u have an rngine failure to aim for a school- - the kids will cushion the landing!!!

I'll be looking out for the accident report on this one - if, as suggested, the scissors link broke, then they're either extremely lucky or the pilot was having a really good day . . .

... take care not leap to simplistic, and possibly premature, conclusions on this one (flyerh - & eesdl). I agree with Whoneedswings - the accident report will make very interesting reading when it is finally released. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later, as it is necessarily of some interest to all you Power drivers.

Good effort Steve, in what must have been a very hairy few minuets.

If flyhr is right then it would appear that the engineers could carry the can for this. But what about the guy who designed a component that could be fitted the wrong way round?? We all know that it will happen eventually.

As I am not prone to jumping to conclusions, am not a power driver and the fact that Agusta have already by insistence of the AAIB informed all Power operators throughout the world of this problem, you can judge for yourselves.

Both accidents did not take minutes to meeting the hard stuff. If they had, the consequenses could have been very different.

As the scissor link holds the pitch change links in the correct place and at the correct loading angle, if several attemps to pull pitch had been made the upright angle would have decreased causing the pitch links to depart company with the blades.

As for fitting the part the wrong way around, both accidents happened within two hours of the parts being fitted by the same company and, so far, none of the other 120 Powers thoughout the world have crashed.

Jumping to conclusions would be blaming the FADEC!

Steve well done and hope your okay. Fred sends his regards from the USA.

Call in sometime and how's the mil contract going, it will be your baby soon!

Stinger :

I'm of the opinion that this accident, IF ( that's an IF in BIG LETTERS ) the accident report shows mis-rigging of the scissors link, then it's really important for every helicopter pilot. One more really really important bit to check before I wind my Robbie up ( don't laugh ) next time . . .

Thanks all for the thought on the 109 incident - fraid to say you are all right the scissor link was installed the wrong way round the witch hunt goes on.

Stand by for more on this the third accident from possibly the same engineering error!!!!

They thought that, in the Pete Barnes accident, the passenger hit the overhead switches with his headset that knocked out the buzz bars lol.

Now we know the real reason. You fly in the cruise at 85% torque and flat pitch in a millisecond and try and not hit the top of your headset on the overhead console.
Follow that with a snap turn in cloud at night and you have lost all your instruments and light.

Well done Pete!
And in both incidents, well done the 109 Power - everybody walked away. :ok:

The master and gen buz bars on inspection are on the passenger side with a sprung loaded bar that can switch off all three at the same time (now being modified).
The headsets in use at the time had thick pads across the top of the head very close to these switches but under normal circumstances not a factor.
Fly along at cruise torque with not so tight seat belts and slam the collective down (not recommended). Doesn't take too much negative G to lift you a couple of inches out of your seat. (Done it in my wild and crazy days in a BO 105, settled down now though).

Before the real reason came to light, they thought the passenger bent foreward, leaned back and switched everything off causing a sudden loss of SAS and loss of instruments. Only thing they could come up with at the time, even though he would have had to lift his bum at the same time. Flat pitching would lift your bum just enough to reach those switches and that is what happens when that part breaks!

It has been officially confirmed that the scissor link was put on the wrong way round with the bolt shearing on both accidents.
Amazing that the accident investigators were so convinced it was electrics etc they didnt bother to check the head for any discrepancies especially as link changes were made just prior to flight.

FlyerH seems to have a handle on what happened.

I must be missing something here; does installing the bits mentioned incorrectly, not affect the handling or collective behaviour? Is the first sign of the problem when the bolts fail? With the blade pitch uncontrolled, do you not get horrendous vibrations and loss of control?

I only ask, because I 'heard' of a B212 that had a 'rotating scissors assembly drive bolt' (say that after a few pints!) fail in flight, resulting in loss of pitch control on one blade. The a/c practically destroyed itself in the subsequent descent and only stopped (destroying itself) when it hit the water.

Lots of interesting points seem to be raised here. Did the AAIB really not look at the head?

Excellent job done by both pilots though, well done.

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Another day in paradise

[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 01 July 2000).]

All things being equal, if a component CAN be fitted back-to-front, inside-out or upside-down it WILL be at some time or other.

Unfortunately today, like non-North-Sea helo pilots, engineers work long hours under extreme pressure to achieve a result the we were well rewarded for ten years ago.

Engineering in a competetive marketplace is regarded as an expensive necessity especially since the advent of the JAR regs.

If, as alleged, the rotating scissors failed due to incorrect fitment the reasons for that way of fitting MUST be correctly established by the AAIB.

Human factors must be included in the report.In any pilot error report the commander's flying experience 1. In total 2. In the last 90 days and 3.The last 28 days is expressed. The licensed engineers' previous time on duty is never released, so in theory the concerned personnel could have been on shift for a ridiculous amount of time before making a mistake.

All in all some poor minimum wage geezer in Italy may have painted ALL the scissors in a certain batch "THIS WAY OUT" on the wrong side os the scissors for all we know. Like pilot based accidets there is usually more than one cause ( and often many) that contribute to an incident.

Let's be thankful there have been no injuries in both these accidents.

[This message has been edited by 4Rvibes (edited 02 July 2000).]

Yet another 'Murphy' in the aviation game. In the 60's when the Whirlwind had been in service, in various marks, for many years, one of our instructors found that as the roror was engaged the beast started to shake itself to pieces. Hasty shut-down and much head shaking as to reasons. Nothing immediately obvious and it took much investigation and some sharp sighted-ness on someone's part to spot that the tail rotor was fitted the wrong way round !! Nobody had previously realised that it was a possibility. Thereafter, the pre flight required that the tail rotor be positioned in line with the pylon and a check that they matched aerodynamically.
Murphy is still there and waiting to indulge his/her warped sense of humour. :) :)

The difference here seems to be that there is no evidence of the mistake until the bolt fails, is this true?

To repeat my earlier question, does losing pitch control of one blade not result in loss of control and eye ball mashing vibrations?


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Another day in paradise

Agusta 109 topics
 

Does anybody in the industry have experince on the A-109Power in the EMS configuration. I need informations regarding high altitude operations. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

Sloane Helicopters at
www.sloanehelicopters.com for details and ask for Merrick Forsyth who should be able to help.

I've heard that there was a very recent tragic accident in Greece with an Agusta 109 Power in the EMS role. Five fatal - does anyone know if this true and if so why?

"trying to keep an ear to the ground"

I believe this accident involved a standard A109 ie. not the newer 'Power' but can't be sure. It was flown by Italian crew from Helitalia who operate EMS on contract for the Greek authorities and it went down in the early evening in some of the worst storms ever seen in Greece.

I have read that there were 5 people on board including a heart attack patient and a nurse but am unsure whether it was single-pilot. Either way, the crew were reportedly having trouble with the weather conditions before the aircraft was lost on Radar.

I obviously should not be jumping to conclusions so soon, but I would not be too surprised if the horrendous conditions together with the pressure put on crews to get Medevac work done whatever the circumstances, were found to be the primary factors in this accident.

In conclusion, another tragic accident and as always, lessons to be learned by us all.

I understand there is huge dissapointment from Power customers ... 'overengined' cracking of MAJOR components (tail boom, bulk head), less than promised range...

Can this be true?

What is their reliability rating? any good?

They look sexy and go fast tho' ....

Where do you get all your rubish from JOEPILOT!!! how can a helicopter be overengined - surely that is what all real pilots have been crying out for since we started operating helicopters seriously - if not from the begining, never been in that situation where some real power would get you past the worry stage of what if a "donkey" stops now? - maybe the transmision could be made a little more sustantantial for normal ops but would do me fine if I was in dire straights. I,ve been operating the Power now for 2 years and never heard of cracks in the tail etc so again check your source. the Power is an Awesome machine well up to the job required, there will always be improvements to be made in any aircraft, but must say this beast is the best I've ever flown in 20 years!!! so don't let the badmouthers of this world bluff you into thinking the worst

[This message has been edited by swerve (edited 21 January 2001).]

Oh ok ... put me down for two!

Swerve

If you feel like that why don't you answer Alouette's initial question?

Why have I heard about the cracks at the back end and alarming accidents if there are no grounds? Have you looked at your A109 Power during your two years and who clears your Check A ability? How often does the back end need inspecting between the standard 50 or 100 hour inspections?

Hopefully for Joe Public (not Joe Pilot) you do not fly PT flights if you haven't noticed or been advised of anything before!

"back to keeping an ear to the ground"

Earpiece

I usually I have great respect for your clippings/info, generally good stuff well worth reading - however on this one like most miss-informed people you have made 2+2=6

There are no cracks to major components (tail boom bulkhead)as initialy offered by joepilot ( who comes across to me as a pure speculator for cheap gossip) the previous accidents have been due to scissor links fitted the wrong way round, due to arguable reasons, but I believe Agusta were less than clean with their maintenance manuals - we wait to see. the (potential)cracks that I believe you may be hearing about are to the tail rotor blades which needs checking every 10hrs and 25hrs untill replacements are sourced by Augusta, I trully know of no other cracking - and fly PT daily, with no life more valuable than mine !! Trust me
Initial question has been answered by other means - just so you don't think I'm avoiding that question aswell

[This message has been edited by swerve (edited 24 January 2001).]

Swerve
After that reply I can only watch and listen out. Good enough so keep flying safely.

"keeping an ear to the ground"

If I was a EMS operator the first thing I would notice about the A109P is that has bloody WHEELS!

What the hell use are those things when deciding where to land? The 109 might be sleek and fast but if the paramedics have to run two miles to the incident, what's the point?

A waterlogged Helitech 99 proves my point.

Mr Hamlyn might not agree with the "tail booms do no crack" quote!
What happened to the initial claim of Full pax full fuel in VIP role? From what I hear it does not come close.

Agusta 109 topics (Merged)
 

Latest rumour is that the Agusta Koala has been grouned worldwide ! ....anybody have any clues as to why??? :confused: :confused:







=================================

This thread is now a merger of various Agusta threads.

See also:

Dyfed-Powis Police ASU buys Agusta

Heliport

Spinwing

Got a copy of the AD in front of me. Looks like they found some major cracks in the tailrotor blade. Careflight had been working with CASA once they became aware of it but the crack got worse and now Careflight decided to ground their machine and CASA have basically grounded the other LInfox machine as well.

Not sure what the FAA will do but according to my sources the machine could be down for some time until Agusta sort out the problem.

Dont you just love playing with the first of type.

Pac Rotors Hi, good morning

In a case such as this and the obvious non use untill sorted, do Heli manufacturers offer replacement birds or do they offer a cash compensation to the owner/user, or is it down to the owner/user to scream loud and hard ?

Not sure what the manufacturers will do in a case like this. I doubt they will appreciate the bad publicity they get from a brand new machine going tits up only a month after going into service. Not sure what is happening with the Koalas based in the US and Europe.

Many manufacturers I think, would be hard pressed coughing up monetary type payments in a situation like this. Its not like they can give them a replacement machine because in OZ all of them are grounded.

Time will tell. If I hear anymore from my contacts will post it here.

It is actually a little strange , most manufacturers issue AD's and then the customer has to purchase the replacement parts ( CHeck out the last paragraph of most US Ad's it gives financial impact of AD ) , If it is in the warranty period I guess most manufacturers would pay for the parts at least.

As widgeon said, the financial impact of an AD is calculated by the FAA, including parts and labor. Who pays for these 2 costs is worked out by the manufacture (with some input from the customers). Since the Koala is a new machine, they should all be under warranty.

I also think that Augusta needs to deal with this problem fairly quickly, since there's usually a large number of sales when a new model is introduced, and future sales could be hurt without an effective response.

Latest update on the downunder Koala scenario is apparenytly Agusta have told Careflight that they should change the tail rotor blades every five hours??? :eek:

Now if the program stays as busy as it has been that means every night, that is if the machine doesnt have any jobs, the night crew would have to change the tail rotor blades.

Needless to say Careflight had some very colourful suggestions on what they thought of that idea.

So much for the good ole customer support. By the way Agusta have, from what I understand, not recognised the AD and grounding from here, and as it stands the only two grounded are the ones in Australia. Time will tell if the same problem surfaces in the US and Europe.