The first brand new 412 that was shipped for theVictorian Air Ambulance contract was tied down by the door handles! Apparently the wharfies in the states insisted that is was their job to lash it to the ship and not the bell reps. Needless to say the handles were ripped off before it hit the sunny shores of Oz :mad:

This nose wheel retraction idea is not restricted to 109s. I recall an S76 suffering the same at Brooklands UK back in the early 80s - ie prior to Air Hanson moving to Blackbushe in 88

Agusta Composite Tail Rotor Blades
 

I hear that Agusta are to replace the metal tail rotor blades on the 109/119 series with a chunky looking composite blade.
Does anyone know if this is correct, and if so, when?

Quite correct mid 2004 anticipated introduction.

They have been promising those to us for our A109E Powers since late 2001. We have had several blade crack incidents...hopefully they will deliver one of these days.

Maybe the wait won't be long.
The blades are awaiting ENAC approval, so I believe.
There's also a rumor that there is a skidded version of the Power in the works.

Now a skidded version of the Power would be one I would like to see. I hated the old A109C series with a passion but think the Power and Power Elite are one of the sexiest helicopters out there.

Had a good look over G-MOMO at the Air Harrods hangar, thanks to Robin Renton, and the cockpit setup is awesome. Looks like a very nice helo to fly.

:E

Agusta has been flying a skidded version of the A109E Power since Feb 2001, as I saw it then with my own eyes in Italy during the factory transition course. According to them is saves 500 pounds of empty weight, so I am not sure why they are dragging their feet with it, as I am sure they would sell more in the States if they would use the skids...I know I sure wish ours had skids!

HelioEagle, it seems that the UK has similar needs for a skidded Power. I know of two likely sales. AGUSTA CAN YOU HEAR US?

Unfortunately Agusta does not seem to be very customer oriented especially if you compare them to Bell, Sikorsky or MD. Hopefully they will bring the skids and the new composite blades to the market soon however.

Mum's the word. Keep it under your arm.
 

To: HeloEagle

Be careful what you say about Agusta. I made several comments several months ago and some ass bite that works for Agusta notified their management and now I am being sued.


:E :E :E

Having read a few of the comments regarding the robustness of 109 and whether it is suited to harsher duties over and above the VIP role surely something must be said with regard to the fundamental design of the 109 from its original purpose.

The 109 was originally designed to a military specification with the emphasis on the airframe strength. Following the incidents in the UK involving the EMS and Police 109 one cannot argue with the integrity of the aircraft hull. Perhaps this was one of the major factors upon which Dyfed Powys Police made their decision.

Furthermore the 109 has been used by the UK military since four were donated by the Argentinian Army in 1982. Many thanks by the way.

A response on the subject of wheels versus skids issue from a special forces type person involved with the 109 would be very interesting. Perhaps such a person would also have the authority to comment on the operational capability of the 109 in robust conditions.

Dyfed Powys A109
 

Thomas Coupling, let me correct some errors on your post re the size of Force areas and the need for a 109 to improve response times.
Checking the latest police almanac clearly shows that the Dyfed Powys force area is larger than any area covered by any air support unit in England and Wales.
E.g
Dyfed Powys 2,704,305
North Wales 1,554,858
North East 2,124,132
Devon + Cornwall 2,530,516
Chiltern 2,093,073
South+East Wales 897,463
Central Counties 2,506,891
North Mids 1,183,775
(All figures shown in Acres)
The Dyfed Powys area is over 52% of Wales.
The only bigger force area is Strathclyde in Scotland.

Furthermore the argument put forward re commonality of type holds no water. North Wales, like some others may have used the Sheep approach and copied what others have bought. Surely what is more important is selecting an aircraft that meets the operational needs of the Police Authorities and public that it is to serve. When spending public money the selection process should be robust enough to stand scrutiny that the product is fit for task, not just buy the aircraft that the chief pilot or UEO prefers. Although many units assist each other with mutual aid they are generally all independently funded and run. Commonality of type would currently offer no operational or financial benefit.
I have it on good authority that Dyfed Powys committed to a rigorous selection process comparing all available types against a detailed mission profile that had been approved by the local ACPO. The operational capability, combined with the purchase costs and ongoing running cost were all taken into consideration.
The 109 was found to be by far the most capable compared to the mission profile AND have a cheaper purchase price (including a full NVG compatible cockpit, NOT available on the 135 or 902)

Given the recent history the force had had with their previous 109, the safety and capability of the type would have been the subject of considerable scrutiny by pilots, observers, ACPO and "bean counters" alike, before deciding to buy another. The fact that they have is testament to the advantages in performance and price that it offers.

Regardless of the content of your post I note that you have changed your handle to a brand new one before posting that JoBerg.

You really should build yourself up a spare for ventures like that!

Joburger: I stand corrected re the geographical size of your force area, shame 90% of the population live in only 30% of it!

I also have it from first hand knowledge that this a/c came third on the list of choices BEHIND the 135 and 902, to do the job. And it was a long way behind in third place.
Do you honestly expect me (or anyone else for that matter) to accept that this force decided that their mission profile was so far removed from 99% of the rest of the country that they had to select a very different a/c to do the job.
I would suggest that us sheep might just possibly have realised that there was some merit in:
modern JAR 27 capable helos
purpose built for the job in hand
common ground in sharing experiences with all the other sheep
User groups for sheep
ample relief sheep to fly the a/c
ample type rated examiners

It came down, quite simply (because we are after all, sheep) to money - plain and simple. Bean counters rule...and always will, sorry.

And there was me thinking that they bought their original 109 in a fit of pique after a barney with the suppliers of their first choice. :E

Thomas Coupling Gets Facts Wrong Again
 

Tommy "bah bah" Coupler : Whoever your contact who says they have "first hand knowledge" of the selection scores is, don't pay them, as they are giving you duff gen. I've seen it in black and white and the 109 out-scored both the other two on performance and price.

I think we have established that due to the size and demographics of the Dyfed powys area their mission profile will vary from many more urban forces.
However, I accept that the mission profile is not that different from many other forces who have chosen another type, e.g a 135.
The difference is that senior staff in many of those forces air support units a.k.a. The Sheep, Chief Pilot etc. chose the aircraft first and then wrote their selection criteria/mission profile to ensure that it was biased to the one they wanted.
Of course the reason many do this is that they see their neighbours shiny new toys and make the mistake of believing the marketing bumpf which claims great things. Unfortunately, many find that, unlike Ronseal, it doesn't do what it says on the tin. The promised increase in performance over their old squirrels is minimal and they can't actually achieve some elements of the mission profile.
When they find this out it is too late and they daren't let on as their senior officers and bean counters would turn them into lamb chops.
Dyfed's first 109 came about after withdrawing from an initial order for a 135. At the time of that order, the 135 in the police role was merely a concept and the aircrafts performance/weight was projected. It sounded like the best thing since sliced bread, but as the project moved on it became clear that the final product was not going to get anywhere near the promised increase in usable payload and endurance. It was brave of the then Chief Constable to avoid being another sheep and cancel the order, changing to an aircraft that could achieve the necessary performance.
Four years on and still the 135 struggled to reach the first promised levels of performance. Even the T2 model still falls way short of a 109 in endurance, useable payload, speed, tail rotor authority etc etc (and the 109 is cheaper)

I'm sure their are some marketing men out their who will tell you different, but you've dealt with them long enough to know the score !

Hows the promised 135 NVG conversion coming on by the way ? 5 years and still counting some say ?

Gloves off, here we go:

Do you know what the mission profile requirement is for our 135?

Do you know what our endurance is?

What is your mission profile, such that it requires a ferrari imposter?

What is your endurance?

I was there when DP fell out with a certain maintenance organisation remember, and I know EXACTLY what went wrong. Be very careful how you interpret that one :suspect:

2 yrs research went into the procurement process and at the time there were NO other new generation operators out there. I most certainly DO NOT take the credit for a massive tidal wave of similar decisions within the industry unless you believe your own drivel.
Believe it or not, it's not ONLY what it must do that counts....it's very much running costs too. The proof of the pudding as they say....

Can/will the 109 consistently achieve a 98% serviceability rate that the 13 (135) forces are experiencing to date? Mmmm...............

Of course the Agusta can do the job. There is no dispute over that. BUT can it provide an overall package of efficiency? I think not. Time will tell.
Joking aside......do you really really think 13 (135) and 11 (902) police forces didn't ever question their methods re the procurement of possibly their most expensive asset(s). Then ask yourself this: why has no-one else gone down the same road as you, billy no-mates ;)

I do like the analogy of buying because of the robustness of the machine from your a previous experience(s). Two questions:
(a) are you expecting to crash again soon?
(b) Do you actually know the crashworthy rating of an Agusta 109E power?

Ewe should know better and stop bleating.

T.C.

See , I was right about Autogyros!

:D

No love lost in them their Welsh Vallies then................. :) :)

TC the Joker
 

98% Serviceability, HA HA HA, thats the best one i've heard in a long time.
Obviously everyone is quite happy with all the problems with the Fadec and the Aris pot failures.

You've fallen in the trap of believing the marketing mens stats again Tommy.

Next you'll be nominating Macs for a Quality of Service award !

No one plans to crash but if the worst should happen look at recent police history before choosing.
A. 109, stayed intact, everyone walked away, no injuries.
B. 135, Disintegrated, serious injuries, (sadly)
I know what i'd rather be in. :ok:

Hmm 109 everyone walked away , are we talking of an autorotation here . If i recall the accident report on the EC135 in Scotland said that the accident would have been fatal in any other type of helicopter .

I quote from report 8/2003

Given the severity of the impact and the amount of damage to the helicopter, it was surprising that the injuries to the occupants were not more severe. The fact that they were not illustrates the effectiveness of the latest, more stringent crashworthiness requirements contained in JAR 27 in improving the survivability of occupants of light helicopters in a severe impact.

and later
Despite being severely damaged in the impact, the structure of the helicopter had offered the occupants considerable protection from injury and it was clear that the more stringent crashworthiness design requirements of JAR 27 had therefore made a significant contribution to the crew's survival, in what might otherwise have been a fatal accident.

Can you provide link to a equivalant A109 accident that people survived ?.

I think I can claim to be a fan of JAR/FAR 27 and therefore this link might just have some bearing on this thread....

http://www.nps.gov/grca/media/16oct03.htm

Early days I know, but this is just one of many instances that 27 has proved to be a lifesaver....

LOTS of photos. Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!

When JoBurg gets around to nominating his 109E crash to illustrate the crashworthiness of that type, he has plenty of choice too ........................... :eek: :E

"Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!"

I didn't know there was such a myth, it must be one of those urban ones...

Or lost in the Myths of time:p

Airbags! Air bags for helicopters inc.

Hereby copyrighted. Big airbag system. Just before you hopelessly hit the dirt, you press a big orange button ( Copyright on Big Orange recognised) Around 50 airbags should do it, methinks, all powered by compressed nitrogen,so it will blow out the fire. Small enough not to put too much of a weight penalty, but blimey, when its all going wrong, very welcome

This idea is now for sale for £ 2 million. Please PM me if you work for a major Helo builder or are a venture capitalist.

Definitely of interest to the Police where H&S has officially gone mad.

Must say, I never thought I'd see a " My chopper crashes better than your chopper" thread.

Fadec never grounded an EC135, we manage it in the air. And 2: ARIS pots keep on failing, we keep on using the spares, both of these are in the stats quoted.

Now c'mon Jo 90 show me yours:eek:

It hurts doesn't it, deep down, beyond this crusty front of yours ...to have to accept that perhaps, just perhaps.....................you really are the BLACK sheep of the family.

Nobody wants yesterdays model anymore...there's too much of a revolution going on in new generation helicopters.

Oh well, you pays your money...you takes your chance sunshine.

I never said I believed the myth about tail rotor authority!

The 900 comes from the same factory [design team] as the Hughes 269/300A .... early models always had trouble with t/r authority .... so they designed the 269/300C and that went a long way to solving that problem.... and we still have the Schweizer S300 to prove the worth of their work.

I can only guess the same team got sort of nostalgic and came up with Notar!

;)

O.K. PA News I'll take the bait. You're right, it is early days yet. How does a Notar have loss of tail rotor authority?? It looks like a pretty crashworthy aircraft to me.
Its a nice change to see a helicopter crash at the Grand Canyon and NOT burst into flames.

Ah, he lives!

I thought you had gone away and changed your name to Joberg with a new type to champion!

Seriously though the NPS crash showed exactly what I was saying relating to crashworthiness - and much of the airframe came out of the dink pretty well. Though before you claim that difference between that and the Scottish EC135 means something I believe that the angles and speeds were undoubtedly different! But both crews came out alive thanks to JAR27.

According to the NTSB preliminary report on the NPS prang something [perhaps a control rod to something that provides the 'puff' to the tail] 'went' and the pilot lost control. On that basis alone [and as we all know it proves nothing at this stage of any investigation] it appears that he lost tail rotor authority - you know the tail was not doing what he, the pilot, wanted it to do!

And using the term Generically - before you get too clever...!!!

When manouevring I think it is fair to say that any unexpected loss in tail authority [be it a conventional t/r delaminating, a failing notar fan or the directional control dustbin parting company, or even a fenestron getting all mixed up] will leave the pilot stuck ........ without the tail rotor authority the pilot might reasonably expect ..... quite predictable no matter how rare.

Of course you can always blame it on the pilot .......

I guess if Hollywood had anything to do with it the whole thing would have gone up in a napalm fireball.... they have not read JAR27 there!

Noise!
 

Although only a mere 22 driver and inexperienced in police aviation matters, I do remember reading sometime ago about a big increase in the level of noise complaints increasing when the 109 was 1st introduced to police work in Wales as a replacement for the previous type.

The noise signture a particular machine makes does must surely be a factor used when an ASU makes a choice on a particular machine.

Other possible choices are also absent from UK and other european ASU's are machines such as the bell 230/430 (as far as I'm aware) with its noise signature also a possible factor.

New A109 model?
 

Reports from pilots attending the factory to pick up their shiny new Powers, there appears to be a "stretched" Agusta A109 undergoing trials.

About a 2ft fuselage stretch in the cabin area, totally new main rotor head & blades, new (about time) tail rotor system, and uprated engines.

Now, if they could only give it some real disposable payload to go with the looks and the speed, it may finally meet the promises ;)

Rumoured to be due for the market when 109E sales tail off.

"S"
Talk of an "EC" type rear end as well to address the T/R problems, which are ongoing. Look at your T/R Blades EVERY post, preflight and turnaround.

Flew an Elite yesterday and also see the 139 on occasions.

Should know more as I live only 15 minutes from Vergiate, but there are distractions and the spy network is busy!

There are new composite tail rotor blades in the pipeline to be a retro fit for 109/119. When? Don't know.

There has also been spotted a skidded Power or maybe it was a twin 119.

There has also been spotted a skidded Power or maybe it was a twin 119.
 

A picture of the skid equipped 109E was in a trade mag that I saw today, along with an article relating to a military purchase in SE Asia of 109E's. Strange look, and probably able to give a few much needed kilo's extra payload ;)

Head Turner - the "twin 119" has been in production for years. It's called the 109.....

pphelli yes I do off course know that there is a 109 with 2 engines and wheels. I also know that the fuselage of the 119 is different to that of the 109. A 2 engined 119 is quite different to the 109.

Now to follow this thread further it would appear from comments about the selection of the 109 by a certain Welsh Police Force that the 109 is not at all liked for the many reasons stated. Noisy, expensive, not too easy to see out of, CG concerns etc.

I have done police work in the past with the AS355 models and therefore cannot comment on how much better the latest EC135/MD902/A109E models are.

From what I hear, none seem to be ideal, suffering power requirements below expected criterior/excess weight and poor endurance.

Until a dedicated machine is built (which will be never) I think that each police authority can, for their own reasons, choose the one they prefer. Ideal or otherwise.

It would be interesting to see a world wide count of Police helicopters by type.

Bit more information gleaned from Italy..

The "109S" (S=Stretched) involves a stretch of no more than 30cm, I assume that is 30cm on the Elite dimensions and not the standard Power. Also, the flight testing started in 2001 !!!

The skidded Power idea was dropped over a year ago with flight testing not completed. It was known as the CFA project - presume these were the Italian initials for "fixed landing gear". The aircraft involved is MSN 11055 reg I-PCFA

It would be interesting to see a world wide count of Police helicopters by type.


Such lists exist but they do not tell all the story. They can suggest that most countries have tried all the manufacturing options, little more.

In its basic form you would probably come up with a number crunch that might suggest that perhaps the Bell OH58 or the OH6 appeared more numerous in police services worldwide but that might hide the truth.

I know of a number of 'police' air support units that have as many as a dozen aircraft on their books ... many are just numerical wrecks that will never fly again.

I am also aware that some of those same units fly in daylight only [because they cannot sustain the purchase of night role equipment] and others that fly at night only.

Then there are some of those multi-aircraft units that have just two pilot/mechanics to operate the whole lot. The total number of hours operated by such a unit might reach 1,000 pa but some of these airframes for just a handfull of hours towards that fleet total under 1,000 pa.

I know that this is a very selective example, but how can you sensibly compare such a set up with a UK police air unit that flies 1100 hours on a single high quality modern airframe?

It is the old story '.... how long is your piece of string... '

It will be at best misleading.

Perhaps the nearest we might get is to try and equate flight hours per square mile? One single state police aircraft in the State of Oregon does not match the numbers of State Police in Massachusetts.

Flight and Forecast have both reported on the A109S over the past year:

- 440 lb increase in MTOW
- P&WC PW207 donks
- Composite, scimitar-shaped TR blades
- Possible roll-out at HAI 2004


Cheers,
T/shaft