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Couple of reasons that I can think of : poor view out for the Police Observers, long nose gets in the way. There is a half bulkhead between Cabin and cockpit, leaves a feeling of splitting the crew, and finally it's noisy. You can hear them coming for miles. ;)
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I think the 109 got a bad press for a while following a couple of crashes which were due to the scissors assembly on the rotor being fitted incorrectly.
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I believe, never flown it so can not confirm, that in the hover, nose up attitude is rather uncomfortable for the police observers. It is certainly a very sexy looking machine, I would love to fly it, but from what I have seen, not as a HEMS machine! Tail rotor too exposed, small wheels, no ground clearance, small cabin. On the plus side, nice and fast, sexy and the power (from what I hear) has 'power'!
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think it has a lot to do with Mc Alpine marketing their product better as well. Selling a complete package , is there much type approved police kit available for the 109 ? , Does landing a wheeled aircraft in muddy fields present a problem as compared to skid equipped ?. I have also heard horror stories about the maintainability of them . But they do look sexy that's fer sure
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I decided not to comment on this one, because I don't have direct experience of the 109E (unfortunately), but even with my limited knowledge, I can't agree that the Thames Valley Air Ambulance 109E produced much evidence of it being a good choice for this use:
It crashed in an effectively uncontrolled fashion because of the scissor jack problem mentioned previously; It once got stuck on a railway because its wheels got mixed up with rails and/or sleepers - skids would seem to be a better bet surely? In the end, it was binned by the trust paying for it. There were differing stories about why, but high cost of operation was said to be part of the reason. I do agree that the success of the 135 and (to a lesser extent) the 902 is at least partly due to the marketing effort put in by their UK distributors. The fit of police role equipment offered must surely be a major factor - it is something that the police officers who decide what is flown can make (fairly) informed decisions upon. The other issue is maintenance support - the numerically more common have (relatively) well established support and parts systems. I would be interested to hear why DP went for a 109E again, but I suspect we will never really know. Incidentally, Police Aviation News publish numerical comparisons between candidate airframes. As a driver though, I would love to have the opportunity to fly one! |
Helinut, I agree that skids are normally better than wheels for most operational purposes but that is not always the case. The Forces work both wheeled and skidded ac to great effect but having flown a variety of both I lean slighty towards skids.
In defence of the Thames Valley Air Ambulance, the scissors cock up on both ac was human error and the litigation continues. As for the nose wheel incident I believe the ground gave way which although no less embarrassing, could happen to any of us. I'm not a huge fan of the Power, yes its sleek, fast and works well as a VIP heli, but as a workhorse I think it falls down on cost, durability and flexibility. Agustas are also known for an excessive rearwards Centre of Gravity which requires good pre planning to ensure safety. I think its an expensive choice. |
I stand to be corrected, but I bet you the decision to buy the 109 rather than the other two on the short list, was NOT made by anyone with aviation experience:confused:
Doesn't commonality of types tell you something when purchasing equipment. 95% of police air support units operate only two new generation types...why is that? Bean counters win again (for the short term). |
As I received a mention!
My understanding was that the final final final decision was made at the police authority - a factor that tends to fit in with TC's feelings on the matter. In the end though it will be seen as a 'tick' in favour of the 109 especially after the recent sales of the A119 to police units in the USA. |
...besides all other points and because nobody else mentioned it yet - the 109's tend to overheat their main transmission when operated in extended slowflight or (even worse) hovering. The machine is build for the fastlane! I did surveilance type work in one, and we would always temp out after some time. As a police ship you need to be able to sit somewhere as long as it takes without temp concerns.
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True it looks good and is fast. However, after dark when you want a Nightsun fitted the top speed is 140 kts IAS, which is only single figures better than the 135 & 902. The searchlight fit does seem a bit of a meccano modification, certainly with the SX-16. One wonders if they'll consider the Nightsun II although taking it on and off isn't an option with this equipment. Have to agree with JC though, it is very noisy.
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No experience of the E, but time on earlier models. The nose up/CoG issue was partailly resolved in the C, by shifting most of the avionics from the tail boom to the nose bay, but even in the A & AII, I never found it that much of a problem. MGB shouldn't overheat, I'd suspect blockage somewhere, which can (and does) happen on the engine oil coolers. Well known for clogging up with dust and dry grass, particularly fire fighting or sling loading, and at low speed there is insufficient airflow to compensate. Quick clean usually does the trick!
Re skids vs wheels, there are problems with both. The reference to wheels & railway lines, there is always the possibility that skids could be bent landing on lines, if the skid tube is misplaced such that weight is concentrated on the tube away from the saddles. Also, the toe and/or heel of skids are always at risk of catching and inducing dynamic rollover in bush landings. 109 has always struck me as more of a high speed VIP transport than a workhorse. 12 years of operation has taught me that it is a classic Italian piece of machinery: if it isn't leaking oil somewhere, it will ;) |
Similar experiences to John. A RAAF Iroquois landed on some train tracks in the early 70s and the heel of one skid got stuck in the rails... and here come de train!! The crewy had run ahead to warn the train, but with all wheels locked up it skidded and skidded... and slid past the chopper on the next track! Lucky the pilot had turned the blade sideways.
Our Agusta was not an E, but we had some troubles landing on soft ground - the wheel sank into the grass, past the hub, and we were belly onto the ground. Lucky not to lose the antennas. It is possible to damage a brake line if it sinks too far. We didn't leak too much oil - except from the dampers - but the Allison engines made sure the tail boom could never rust, being covered with a fuel residue and soot. The CG would progress backwards as the fuel burnt off from the front and the soot deposited at the back. The Agusta was never a successful military machine, once the Russians developed an oil-seeking missile.:* |
The fundamental issue that has been missed is that policing has to be done with a certain amount of style. There are few things that will instill confidence in the public more, than those lovely little retractable wheels popping out in the low hover, just before touchdown. Then, when the observer steps out in suitably Gucci kit to right wrongs and defeat evil he will have something of an advantage.
Must say though, seems a barmy choice, and if things are so critical in the crime mecca of Dyfed Powys thenn perhaps they should have gone for something even bigger, like a dauphin?? |
Searchlight issue besides, they do need the speed as they have the largest force area to cover in the UK (4,188 square miles, with the furthest points 160 miles apart). Their HQ (and thus hangar, ops base) is not located particularly near the center, either!
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Ppheli: Where do you get your stats from?
Strathclyde NE Chiltern N Mids C Counties Devon and Cornwall all bigger than Dyfed Powys area!!! Even we cover 9500 sq miles! As was also mentioned earlier, when you stick nightsun and cameras on the 109, you're down to 140kts Vno which is 5 kts faster than a 135? What will they do for relief pilotage? |
A109 - reliability
I was stuck in the middle of a conversation, (well, bordering on an argument!) between two people yesterday discussing the reliability of the Augusta 109.
Can anyone here shed more light so i can do a better job as mediator next time! Tigg |
As with any helicopter it depends. Let me give you two scenarios.
I have a friend who had a A109AII for personal use a couple of years ago. He bought it because, as a twin, it had a low capital price. He flew it for an hour or two a week. Half the time that it was on the ground, it was sat outside in the cold, damp rain. He moaned, bitterly that when he came to fly it, it was unreliable. It cost him a fortune to operate on an hourly basis. He says he was paying for a days unscheduled maintenance every week. His techlog was full of defferred defects. The gear rarely worked. He survived a year with it, then sold it. I also know of a very succesful operation that has several A109A's & II's. They fly them every day, always hangar them in a beautiful hangar, have a team of dedicated engineers who pamper the machines. They swear by them, have operated then for almost twenty years. Get the picture. |
fair point, so care for it and it will reward you well, as with anything.
But would those caring engineers have to do more work per week to keep it in tip top condition than they would on say a S76?? |
HT,
I operated a 109AII for 9 years, which is now on the bottom of the Pacific, along with the ship taking it to North America :rolleyes: When it was sold, a weight lifted from my shoulders. We averaged 300 hours per year, but it was labour intensive in maintenance hours, and never made money as a charter machine. Fast (sometimes), fun to fly (short trips only, seating's awful), attractive lines, leaks oil constantly - all in all, Italian;) |
Have to agree with Senor Eacott. Ours was a MkII Plus Widebody, and it needed to be washed after EVERY flight, due to the oil being vented in front of the tailboom and the copious soot pumped out of the C20Rs. They could never be used in war because an oil-seeking missile would find it every time.
Yes, it was fast, our VIP seating for 4 in the back was comfortable with the extra 7" shoulder room, but the range was tragic. Half the available payload was taken up with spare cans of oil in the boot. Aircon couldn't keep pace with summer. Reliability? It had an electrical glitch that tripped number 3 inverter on almost every flight. Couldn't fix it. Had a recurring generator problem. Pulling a chip detector was a nightmare. Overall, an Italian show pony, not a work horse. Our S76 is far more reliable, rarely has a fault, but keeps an engineer fully employed on the scheduled maintenance and the paperwork. |
I agree with John E. ....and don't forget the corrossion ...I mean it only had 2400hrs (AFTT) on it??? cripes! :ugh: :(
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I agree with Jed A1. The A109 is an excellent machine particularly the E and contrary to some peoples opinions here operates in many "workhorse" roles with considerable success. However it would appear that the more they are utilised the better the reliabilty becomes (particularly on the A and C).
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Totally agree with all the above.
Work them hard, and every day, and they'll love ya. Leave them sitting around with nothing to do and they'll cost you dear. ...bit like an Italian girlfriend I once had:} |
Mister Zukerman
I am surprised to discover such a degree of resentment towards Agusta. First, I think you posted your thoughts in the wrong subject. This topic is the discussion on the A109 reliability and not the personal regrets towards companies that did not satisfy your personal expectations. I did not find any contribution to the discussion on the A109 reliability but only bad words against a company that deserve at least respect. You said you spent three years working at Agusta. In my opinion you lost a great opportunity of see Italy because is so evident you’ve been living for such a long time with big and thick slices of good Italian salame (and not salami as you British keep saying) on your eyes. The idea that Italians are inferior with respect to the ability, that people like you owe, in working on a complicated work is the evidence you consider Italians inferior and do not deserve the respect by you. I am still laughing about your idea of machismo that affects Italians. This the evidence that you have lost a good opportunity of get in touch with Italian culture that, fore sure, is far greater than yours. I suggest you that next time you’ll been visiting Italy, whenever this will happen, to bring with you some good working manual for complex projects to distribute to the poor Italians workers. This will allow my Country to reach a descent level of competence to deserve the honour to talk to you. By the way the name of the company is Agusta and not Augusta. |
ALso had recent conversation with a friend flying one and it equated to:
Turbomeca engines >>>>>>Hanger Queen P/W Engines>>>>> Reliable |
Yes Zuckerman,
I do think you have a strange attitude towards Agusta. The asbestos problem was not as you described. The asbestos presence in the air of the hangar was kept monitored twice a year. About fifteen years ago the hangar structures were completely cleaned by asbestos. The atmosphere in northern Italy is very humid and hence more corrosive than normal but no more than that. I still have my Lancia since ten years in perfect conditions although it was never waxed and it does'nt have a great reputation for its resistance to corrosion. PS: Yes I work for Agusta and I'm sorry, but if you hate Italian Salame you miss a good taste of life. Buona Fortuna LU |
bpaggi,
You need to calm down and not act like machismo Italian! First you talk to 'Mister Zukerman', then to 'Zuckerman' ( quite rude really) who actually says he like Salame and thinks it very tasty. It was also not he who spelt Agusta wrongly. My own observation of Agusta 109 is not that is especially unreliable, but that spares back-up is poor, maybe backing up what Lu says - which is not that the A109 is bad, but product support needs to be improved. (my own Italian car started to rust almost as soon as I got it - I now only drive German ;) ) |
Reliability is an eleven letter word. It means different things to different folks
To: bpaggi
Speaking of reliable automobiles I sold a perfectly good Mitsubishi Colt (the one I drove from Germany) and bought a Lancia Delta 1600. From the start I had electrical problems that almost resulted in a fire. I had wheel-bearing problems and the factory paint was so bad that I had to get part of the car repainted. I found defects in the cars structure that occurred when the car was being built and the service was so bad in Arona that I used to drive to Lugano for any repairs or service. I ended up selling the car in Zurich. My present car is a Toyota built in Canada and it is very reliable. :ok: |
I think it is fair to note that Lu is talking of his time at Agusta, which was quite a while ago.
Things have changed considerably since then. |
I hear that a new helicopter operator in West Africa is looking at starting an operation with 3 Agusta 109 Powers in a few months, so maybe we'll get some more feedback then about both reliabilty and support.
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To: Mambobass
Do you have any more information on this proposed operation? Are they buying 3 new Power's for Commercial use? To: Lu Zuckerman Perhaps you need to look at the title of the thread again! I'm quite sure that lots of people could air their grievences in respect of the other major manufacturers too, however you may notice that most people choose not to which is either a reflection on you or them. Perhaps the phrase "time and place" is appropriate here. A perfectly valid question was asked as to the comparitive reliability of the A109 and it would appear as I stated earlier that the consenus is that they are fundamentally a reliable machine that likes to be worked hard to achieve best serviceability. A trait I'm sure you will agree is not without its benefits.:ok: |
Yeah but....
To: Elite
I'm quite sure that lots of people could air their grievences in respect of the other major manufacturers too, however you may notice that most people choose not to which is either a reflection on you or them. Perhaps the phrase "time and place" is appropriate here. I did not indicate that the A-109 is unreliable it was other members of this thread that pointed that out. Other members of the forum indicated that they did not feel that the A-109 was unreliable but that frequent maintenance was required to maintain the reliability. However frequent maintenance is a form of unreliability because the helicopter was unable to go from one periodic maintenance to the next without some type of tweaking and/or servicing. If you feel that I have been unfair in my assumptions about Agusta you should read some of my posts on the A-310 and Bell Helicopter. :ok: |
.......... and Hughes, and Sikorsky and ..........
Please refer to a directory of aircraft manufacturers for the rest of the list! ;) http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-085.gif |
Agusta 109a info
Hi, are there any agusta 109a pilots here who would be able to provide me with information on this helicopter.
I am building one for flight simulator and Im looking for stuff like start up and shut down procedures and any general info about it and its handling. Thanks Alan my email is [email protected] if you want to email me. |
Get in touch with Sloanes - they have a website, and are the UK agents for Agusta.
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Thanks for the reply.
Have gotten great help from one member and an email from another. I wont mention your names incase you dont them mentioned but thanks and ill talk to ya by email. Alan |
Agusta with sore chin
G'day All,
Just heard (from a little birdie, of course), that a nice shiny new A109E in Melbourne may now sport a sore chin due to a towing mishap where the nose wheel retracted without warning. I suppose that's what happens when you have those new fangled wheel thingies. Give me good old skids anyday!! Cheers, MPT PS See page 9 on the piccies thread for a "before" picture. (edited to try and get the first "u" out of Augusta, rats!!!) |
An Agusta 109 was being wheeled down a ramp off a ship in Liverpool when a shackle broke and it rolled into a bollard. There was a little dint in the radome, like if you'd hit your egg gently with your spoon. Damage was £15,000.
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A bit "Roman-nosey" you might say!!:D
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When instructions are not followed.
Agusta shipped a brand new A-109 to the Far East. To protect it during shipment they placed it in a seagoing metal container. There was one problem. The rotor mast protruded through the top of the container. Agusta specified to the shipping firm that no containers be placed on top of the container containing the helicopter. The helicopter was mounted on a metal frame attached to the jacking pads and vibration absorbers isolated the frame. The shipping company followed Agustas’ instructions but the container was not placed on the top of the other containers for the seagoing part of the trip. In fact there were at least three containers placed on top of the container with the helicopter.
The weight on the top drove the transmission down into the fuselage and when the helicopter arrived at its’ destination it was a write off. :sad: |
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