Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc
 

Topic probably covered before but first time here for me.
1000 hrs piston but little jet time.
Can anyone suggest a double cheap way to build hrs. any where in the world.
Thank you.

___
O-o
"`

Try logging in Canada - Crap pay but loads of 206 time. Can,t help with an outfit i'm afraid.

Talk turn, give us a clue...

Tell us what licence do you have and then we might be able to offer sensible advice.

Fair point.
QHI
GR(H)
+700hrs instructing
R22/44
5hrs only on 206
What do you think??
Thanks

___
O-o
"`



[This message has been edited by Talk Turn (edited 09 April 2000).]

Thanks
Sounds the sort of thing.
Going to Canada in Sept. so if anybody does know of a company I would be grateful.

Cheapest place for 206 time is Los Angeles. You can fly traffic watch there for $110/hr which is by far the cheapest I have seen. Against it is that you won't start it and will fly from the left seat. But he that fly's gets PIC....... 562 691 2878 or [email protected]

Can't recommend the operation as I picked the information straight from Rotor and Wing.

Thank you; I shall persue that.

Cost Sharing
 

Christmas is coming up, and friends are asking me (as I'm a cheaper option) if I can take them up for a Thames Trip in the JetRanger which I hire.

I'm a PPL(H) holder.

I know I can only take a maximum of 3 pax
My question is how does the cost sharing work? I've asked two people and one says I must pay at least half (even if I have 2 or 3 pax), and the other says I must pay at least my share (that is, if I have 2 pax I pay at least 1/3, and if I have 3 pax I pay at least 1/4).

I presume landing fees and any VAT can also be split equally?

Finally, as my hunt through the ANO didn't reveal an answer (looking for a needle in a haystack), where is it in the ANO or Rules of the Air that says this.

Actually, one more "finally": does anyone have any opinions/gotchas/caveats/thoughts about cost sharing?

Darren

I have always operated on each person contributing their share - so for an R22 its half each, and for an R44 (with 4 pax) its a quarter each.

I seem to remember during my training reading that proportional shares are okay.

I have certainly always heard that proportional shares are OK. Though I wouldn't like to give you an absolute guarantee.

------------------
To fly is human, to hover, divine.

I think there may have been an AIC on this subject but unfortunately I can't remember when.

If the CAA rules are anything like Canada (CAR's) then any money recieved for the cost of the A/C or anything other would be considered to be a commercial hire. Since you hold a PPL(H) you have to be careful about how you declare any funds you recieve.

I would suggest you contact flyinglawyer for the definitive answer.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif



[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 03 December 2000).]

You can share the costs of the flight with your passengers as long as there's no element of profit to yourself. If you split it equally between the four of you, there's no problem. What you can split is the actual costs of the flight itself - including VAT and Landing Fees. If you own the aircraft, you can't factor in any fixed charges such as a proportion of the parking charges or whatever. If you're renting it, no problem, just split the final bill four ways.

Offshoreigor: the CAA used to have the same system - if any money or payment in kind changed hands it was considered Hire or Reward. A few years ago they realised this was too Draconian even for them so they changed the wording from "Hire or Reward" to "Valuable Consideration", thus allowing sharing of the actual costs of a flight between the passengers and Pilot, as long as the Pilot made no element of profit.

I've hunted through the CAA site for a reference, but unfortunately I can't find it, sorry.

Robbo Jock's got a valid point... as long as you don't profit from your flying you're sorted Debsatco... I just want to know how many hrs you have to hire a J>R on a PPL

Good news: your passengers can pay for your portion too!

See Article 130 paras 8 and 10. The only constraint on PPLs receiving "valuable consideration" (dosh to you and me) is no more than 3 pax plus pilot.

------------------
Another day in paradise

Dangrenade: hiring a JetRanger on a PPL just requires a type conversion, which is 5 hours plus a flight test. But for insurance reasons, I needed to have 20 hours with a safety pilot (my instructor). As soon as I'd done those 20 hours, I was able to take the JetRanger solo. In fact, this was 20 hours "turbine time", my time's split between the JetRanger and the H500 (5 hours minimum on each though for the type conversions) with a bias towards the JetRanger. As soon as I'd clocked up 20 hours total, I took the H500 and the JetRanger up in the same weekend, around Snowdonia (we were doing a mountain flying course). Also, for that first solo flight in the JetRanger I took a pax up who's first flight it was in a helicopter.

212man
Are you absolutley sure that the pax can pay for the entire flight with the PPL contributing nothing?
If your right, the law must have changed because the position used to be that the PPL had to pay at least his proportion of the cost.
Four pax, pilot must pay at least 25% etc.

I always understood the situation to be exactly as enntwo describes it. It might be worth checking this with the CAA.

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

Well, I tried without success to scan the page and OCR it, so here's the long hand version:

Article 130, para 8 (ii) (bb); The proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot).

When I read this I came to my initial conclusion. Now I wouldn't like to say as it's late and I've had a busy day. Anyway, 130 is the article to read!

------------------
Another day in paradise

Offshoreigor: I had a look at Canada's C.A.R.S. and they do allow a private pilot to recoup flying costs as in C.A.R. 401.28 (2) it reads as follows:

401.28(1) No holder of a private pilot licence shall act as the pilot of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3) or (4), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight where

(a) the holder is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) the holder conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) the holder carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) the reimbursement

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

However, I recommend that anyone wanting to charge for flying should make sure that they read all regulations, and ensure that they follow all that apply.

I just wanted to clarify things. :)

Randy_G

Thanks 212man. Looking at the article, in Heliflyer's case,

Article 130, para 8 (ii) (bb); The proportion which such contribution [I'll assume this means the passenger's contribution] bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot)[3] bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot) [4].

Therefore, the pax can't pay more than 3/4 of the cost of the flight.

In retrospect, I tend to agree with Robbo. It would seem logical, though I wouldn't necessarily expect that to have any bearing!

I responded initially after a quick search late at night and I must admit in daylight the wording looks a little different. Sorry to have misled anyone.

Hope the pax enjoy the flight heliflyer.

------------------
Another day in paradise

Cheap flying ?
 

All :

I'm based in the UK, and need to do a serious amount of hour building in the coming year - 90 hours to get to the 155 to go on the modular CPL(H) course. I then intend doing the FI course ( I'll have over 300TT by then ) so some other person can pay for my flying !!

At some point I want to go abroad, as prices are around the £100 per hour mark, rather than the £160 I'm paying at the moment. However does anyone know of any LEGAL arrangement in use in the UK to provide cheap but SAFE helicopter hour building.

I know muffin ( still out there Richard ? ) asked about a 100hr lease some time ago, anyone else got any bright ideas ?

What sort of eggbeater are you flying for £160.00 per hr, you can do your module CPL(H) in the R22 at a lot less cost ,allegedly
Piston broke!

What sort of eggbeater are you flying for £160.00 per hr, you can do your module CPL(H) in the R22 at a lot less cost ,allegedly

get your self in with a Heli school to do all their dogsbody work and repositionings , ala free hours but at a personal cost Freedom gone)
Piston broke!

Where I fly, because it's limited at the moment, it costs me about £145 +VAT an hour wet - actually £170ish, so a tab more than what I said originally. Dual is £220ish. That IS in an R22.

I'm hoping the company I work for will either IPO ( unlikely in the current climate ) or get bought and the new owners will want to keep people on, in which case I might have enough readies to do the rest of the stuff in one hit.

Where have you heard about "allegedly lots less", £145+VAT seems to be the going rate at most clubs ?

[This message has been edited by The Nr Fairy (edited 16 March 2001).]

Totally unoffically; try the cash option. Many years ago I flew a fair portion of my UK flight training VAT free. Always pay in cash and ask for the discount!!! Before you ask, they're not in business any more...

My solution was to sell all my toys, buy an R22, rent it to the school I was with and fly myself as often as possible.

The Heli was in pristine condition, its owner only sold it because the 10 yr rebuild was 22 months away.It had 800 hrs remaining of the (then) 2000 hr life.

I was lucky - No major costs, rental income paid for insurance and because the Heli became well known for being a nice one it was easy to sell. Adverts in Helidata get the phone ringing like crazy. Spring/summer in UK = big market for an R22. (Only buy a Beta if you have the choice.)

I sold it with 480 hrs remaining and dropped only 2k on the original price.I had spent around 5k on fuel and so on.

160 hrs in my book = 7k. Want some? Buy one! :)

Nr Fairy,

I'm trying to understand your first post - it sounds as though you're saying you need 90 hours to get to 155, but after the CPL course (30 hours or thereabouts, isn't it?) you'll have 300 hours TT. That doesn't make sense. If I've understood right, you only need 155 hours TT to do the CPL course, including 50 or 55 (can't remember which) P1. Are you thinking you need 155 P1? I'm fairly sure you don't.

Quite a few schools give discounts for payment of a certain number of hours in advance - not a huge amount, but it helps. And if you haven't had a Career Development Loan earlier on, get one - up to £8000 from the government, interest free for two years, sometimes extendable to three.

I'm hoping to go the same route as you if I can pass these damned ground exams so will watch with interest for other ideas.

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

Whirly :

It's not my maths which is wrong, just that I omitted my 150 or so fixed wing hours. That, plus 135 plus 30 on the modular course takes me over the magic 300 TT for entry to the FI course.

My understanding of the UK CPL(H) (Restricted) is that it's 155 HELICOPTER hours required for the modular course - check documents on the CAA SRG web site at http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/pld/fcl/fcl_information.asp for full details.

As for the finances, although I'm earning well, I've already got a mortgage and large loan so adding another one doesn't seem financially prudent.

P.S. just found the JAR CPL(H) requirements - http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/SRG_FCL_Gid26.pdf

AND, I've only just seen ( don't remember it being in the document before ) if you have a PPL(A) then it's only 135 helicopter hours including 30 P1.

[This message has been edited by The Nr Fairy (edited 18 March 2001).]

Nr Fairy,

Thank you!!!! :) :) :) :) :)

I didn't know you could count f/w hours towards the 300 TT. I'm in roughly the same position as you - 120 hours rotary, approx 180 f/w. So IF I can get through these ground exams, do a summer's flying, do the commercial course...

Wow!!!!!!! This is beginning to look like it might be possible.

Except I might end up running out of cash too http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

Whirly :

I've wanted to fly helicopters since I was very young. Now I'm in a position to get a CPL(H) I'd almost sell my young son to the highest bidder !!

BTW, is there anyone out there who's done ferrying for Sloane to Lisbon / Majorca ? Could you drop me a line at my email - I'm after some info about it.

hmm interesting. I was only discussing the option of buying an R-22 leasing it to a flying school / letting people use it for self fly hire etc and our figures seemed to work out. We managed to get our own flying down to £65 / hr wet and still have a residual in the aircraft after 2 years - is this realistic? Also on one thread there are loads of posts saying - no commerical heli jobs don't bother and then on this one we are all trying to get CPL(H)'s - who's got it right?

there is an interesting and in the rotor & wing magazine about building hour in bell 206 110$ hour. The ad says call bill at 562-691-2878 or email [email protected] It is located in Southern California
I hope this help.

If you're interested in cheap turbine time in the States, I'd highly recommend 'Commander Chuck' Street who flies a news/traffic helicopter for one of the LA radio stations. He covers the entire LA area, from Orange County in the South to Malibu in the North.
I spent a week flying his JetRanger a few years ago and, flying 6-9am, and 3-5pm, did 25 hours in a week.
Great fun - breathtaking views and interesting flying, including following a Police pursuit.
Although much of the flying is S&L, our 'off-air' breaks provided plenty of opportunities to practise pinnacle and confined area landings.

http://www.commanderchuck.com/_borders/Npjetrgr.jpg

Chuck doesn't advertise 'hours building'. I paid $100 per hour towards the cost of the flight.
If I can find his e-mail address, I'll post it.
If you want more information, please e-mail me. I'd be happy to introduce you.

Tudor Owen



[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 25 March 2001).]

Chuck Street's website is at www.commanderchuck.com
His e-mail address is [email protected]

Flying Lawyer you have opened the big can of worms of who is PIC.

As Commander Chuck Street hasn't got a CFI licence who is??? (don't believe he has)

You are flying a flight for hire but it's only Part 91. But if you only have a UK Private can you legally do the flying???

As all PIC is flown in the left seat then who is PIC???

UK regulations require all PIC time to be flown from the commanders seat. I will admit that in the US that isn't the case.

If he has a CFI and you're PIC from the right then all I have written is wrong. Except the Part that he is getting paid from the flight.

I'm sure you will tell me that its all legal but as a qualified US CFI we never recommended it to the European students.

Heard that the UK used to delete time flown on the news flights from total time for a Commercial licence application.

Rotorbike
I don't think Chuck is an instructor, and the rest of what you say may be right.
He owns the JetRanger, is a journalist and, I think, receives payment for his news/traffic reports not for flying/supplying the helicopter

I have CAA and FAA private licences, and did it for the experience not to build hours towards a commercial licence.
Anyone who needs to count the hours towards a CPL should obviously check the legal position with the CAA.

Re Left seat/Right seat.
My understanding, from informal discussions with the CAA, is that they take a sensible approach to this issue. eg They know PPLs building hours often share a helicopter and, provided they each log only the time they flew, that time can be logged as P1.
I stress that comes from informal discussions.

[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 25 March 2001).]

New user here.I saw a reply to someone looking to build turbine time,that in Los Angeles,California,there was a company that would provide you a B206 at $110.00 per hour.The person replying was a fellow going by the nickname of ROTORBIKE.He mentioned also something about "traffic watch".Was this just a comment as to what would someone be doing while building up the time?Or,was this a condition to using the helo at such low rates.Msg posted back in 1999,probably "rotorbike" is not around to comment.Anybody else heard about this?Thanks.

Probably the best way out there today, seems still to get the instructors rating and build the time on someone elses dime.