The Los Angeles racket is that you get to fly the KIIS-FM traffic spotting B206 of Commander Chuck Street, who is a local radio personality. Commander Chuck keeps a website at www.commanderchuck.com. He used to fly with one hand and transmit with the other. I don't know who hit on the idea but it's a good one... defray the cost of your traffic spotter by having an hours-builder pay $110 to fly it. I'm told Commander Chuck is excellent company, reads a book almopst the whole time and only puts it down to transmit his traffic report. One guy I heard of got 26 hours in in a week.

------------------
"Fair is foul, foul is fair,
Hover through the fog and filthy air..." Macbeth, Act 1 Scene 1

I was only hoping somethiong like that would start up over here in SoFlo ... I'd pay $110 for the time.

------------------
Marc

I flew last week with Commander Chuck, on the early slot 06:00-09:00. He also flies an evening one 16:00-18:00 He flies out of Fullerton and it is now $120/hr. You fly the freeways etc as traffic watch would suggest but also between reports get the chance to do something else, I got to do a good pinnacle landing as well as a few approaches. I think he normally tries to do about 6 approaches. Yes you can book a whole week, but I think you have to book well in advance to get such a block. I had a great time, my first of hopefully many turbine hours. Having zero previous TT didn't effect anything, if he is confident with you he reads a book and even makes a point of telling you that.

Try Temsco Helicopters in Alaska. I know some people with your qualifications that got a break there flying AStars. Not the best pay, but at least you're not paying them. Also try TeX-Air Helicopters in Houston. They fly offshore.

Do tempsco only take green card holders??

Don't know about the green card. Here's their # and fax:

907-225-5141 Fax: 907-225-2340

Thanks Gulf-plt and talk turn,
I am also heading north next yr and appreciate the info.
I've got 1000hrs piston B47 + 1500hrs S-76 co-pilot...any further ideas?

I'd highly recommend Chuck Street ("Commander Chuck") at Fullerton.
I flew with him for a week in 1997, and gained a great deal of useful experience operating the JetRanger - and also had a wonderful time.
Chuck knows those with JetRanger ratings want to do more than just fly around straight and level for three hours - we did lots of pinnacle and confined area landings in between broadcasts and when taking breaks.
Fullerton is a little off the beaten track, not far from the Knott's Berry Farm theme park, but Chuck flies all over the LA area, up to Malibu in the North and down to Orange County in the South.
If you go, make sure you land at the LAX helipad which is on the roof of a building near the Control Tower. The approach is unusual - and the departure (low level to the Ocean) is spectacular.
If you're lucky, you'll get the odd Police chase to follow. Resist the temptation to try to follow too closely what's happening on the ground - the airspace around you will suddenly be filled not only with law enforcement helicopters, but every other news helicopter in the area trying to get the best shot. It gets busy!
I flew both the (early) morning and evening shifts, and did 26 hours in the week. It was a good learning experience, enormous fun, and I'd recommend it. :)

[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 29 May 2001).]

I heard some "runmours" about the CAA not being very keen about counting the hours flown in this way - something about them only wanting to count 50% of them or something like that. Of course if you're not worried about what the CAA think of your hours (if you're US based or whatever) then who cares - but something to be aware of or at least look into before you commit the cash

ravenx
I've also heard it said that the CAA will not allow hours flown as PiC from the left seat to be counted as P1/PiC. I don't know whether this rumour accurately reflects the CAA's position.
I flew the traffic patrol as a cheap way of gaining experience on the JetRanger, and of operating a helicopter in a professional environment – I wasn't building hours towards a licence or rating, and I still had the benefit of the additional experience whether or not the time counted towards my total hours.
However, if the objective is 'hours-building' and logging the time is important, then I agree it would be wise to make enquiries.

I have discussed the issue with friends at the CAA but (I stress) only on an informal basis. Their reaction was that the rumour couldn't possibly be true, and that "surely" no-one would take such a technical point. Hmmm! I'm not sure I share their confidence.

I have a vague recollection that the FAA doesn't draw any distinction based upon the seat occupied and the PiC is allowed to log the hours provided he/she genuinely is the PiC. Warning: it's no more than a recollection, is unconfirmed and may be wrong!
If it is correct, then it would seem illogical for the CAA to refuse to allow the hours as P1 if flown in an N-reg aircraft in the States in accordance with FAA rules. Further warning: The fact that it may be illogical doesn't mean the CAA won't disallow the hours! :)


[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 31 May 2001).]

To Flying Lawyer!

I would love to gain hours and experience on that way!
Is it possible to fly with Commander Chuck having a Canadian CPL?

Thank's
Roberto

Cardinal Air Services California
 

Can anybody give me some info on the above operator ie address and telephone number.

I am interested in the Jetranger hour building on the Kiss FM helicopter they operate.

Any help will be appreciated

You'll find all the information you need, including contact numbers/e-mail address, if you click here: Commander Chuck's website

Cardinal is owned by Chuck Street who as 'Commander Chuck' provides traffic reports for Kiss FM, one of the LA radio stations.
The helicopter, a JetRanger, is based at Fullerton airfield (not far from Nott's Berry Farm/DisneyLand if you know the area).
You fly two slots a day (6-9 am and 3-5 pm) and cover a large area, South to Orange County and North to Malibu.
'Comfort breaks' during the shifts are taken at various sites which give you practice of helipad, pinnacle and confined area landings.
You can book up as many slots as you want or, as I did, the full week. You'll probably need to book well in advance - it's very popular.
I did this in 1997, and recommend it. Chuck is a great guy, and the flying (and sight-seeing) is fun.

One word of caution.
Some people say that, because you fly from the Left seat, the CAA won't count the hours as P1. The contrary argument is that because you're flying an 'N' Reg a/c on your FAA endorsement, the FAA Regs apply and the hours can be counted.
I've not checked the Regs to see which argument is correct because I did it to gain experience, and wasn't hours building for a licence/rating.
It seems from your post that the hours building aspect is important so you might want to check the position with someone who knows the CAA Regs. (Cardinal won't be able to answer this question.)

http://www.commanderchuck.com/_borders/Njrngrlg.jpg

PS
If you contact Chuck, pleae give him my regards. I was there in 1997.)

Tudor Owen

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Flying Lawyer ]

I flew with Commander Chuck earlier this year. I haven't heard of one person not enjoying it. Even if it doesn't count towards qualifying hours, it's worth doing it, IMHO. More info in Tudor's coverage in August's issue of Pilot, there is also a report in the October issue of Today'sPILOT. Feel free to e-mail me for contact numbers etc.

To both Tudor Owen and JohnJ thank you very much for your replies, the information is greatly appreciated.

Hourbuilding in california....
 

Is there any thruth in the Myth that certain Companies allow Low time pilots to hour build whilst operating the News/traffic flights in California?? If so would anyone be kind enough to forward any details and contacts they have please... I am most interested in the Jetranger and the R44 (If thy use them??)


Thanks in advance...

:)

don't recall the reocurring link in justhelicopters.com, but yes, there are a couple.

You still have to pay for the time however.

It's no myth.
I know of two places where hoursbuilding is available.
Try Commander Chuck who flies a JetRanger out of Fullerton Airport which is not far from Disneyland / Notts Berry Farm.
There is another place at Van Nuys. I can't remember the name, but I'm sure someone will know.
Both cover the same area.
I flew with Chuck a few years ago. The cost then was $100 per hour.

A word of caution.
Some people say the CAA will not allow the hours towards a licence/rating because you fly from the right seat. I didn't research the point because I did it to build experience, not hours.
I don't know whether this is true or a myth. It sounds absurd, but that doesn't mean ........ etc etc ;)

The other option at Van Nuys can be arranged through Group 3 Aviation - talk to Peter Lowry. It is also JetRanger flying. I spent a couple of weeks there a number of years ago. Well worth while but I believe Flying Lawyer is correct that the CAA take the view that it cannot count as PIC time (as far as UK requirements are concerned). In their view only one person can count a flight as PIC - normally the one who signs the techlog

Here in the States, there are many ways to skin a cat......Sounds like the question originates in the UK, so flying here is not the first hurdle. Getting here with the blessing of INS(Immigration) and the persmission to fly/work so is first. Then one can take a Foreign license down to the FAA and recieve FREE of Charge a US FAA Private Helicopters License based on ones Current Foreign license. Then comes the fun stuff with INS again. You must have a work permit to fly for hire also a US Commerical Pilots License. Question is if your not getting paid, then do you need a commercial or work permit??? Its a gray area.. Either way if you want the time you can figure out how.
Fly lawyer, jump on in.......

[email protected]
is the traffic watch out of fullerton
$135.00 per hour
he says the time is P1 but also haven't got round to asking CAA

LA Traffic Watch B206 and hour building.
 

As some of you know, I'm off to LA in April to do some flying. I've arranged to do the B206 conversion and some flying with the chap who does Traffic Watch (Chuck someone-or-other) who Flying Lawyer and others have flown with. What I need to know is what the CAA says about hours gained that way. I need another 95.6 hours before I can do an instructors course in the UK. They don't necessarily have to be PIC; I have nearly enough of those anyway. I've asked around, and heard everything from "The CAA aren't going to know are they?" to "You can't log them as P1" to "The CAA probably know the registration of that helicopter by now, so will they allow them at all?".

I'm not desperately worried, as it's a cheap way to learn to fly a B206 anyway, and sounds like lots of fun. But since I do need the hours, does anyone know what the situation is. I don't want to ask the CAA directly, as I'm not sure I should draw their attention to a situation they just possibly don't know about. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

By the way, if anyone fancies meeting up when I'm over there, e-mail me.

Hi Whirly

I spoke directly to FCL (Mike) and was told that it wasn't a problem. I actually need the PIC time, and Mike said that as long as it's an ICAO member and your designated as PIC then it counts. I am writing to the CAA to request this in writing as there has been lots of talk about limiting this kind of activity. As your not carrying PAX for reward or getting paid, then surely you can be PIC after your 206 check ride, on the FAA PPL-H that you get free from the FSDO on the strength of your CPL-H

advancing blade,

Thanks for that. If you get it in writing from the CAA, any chance you could send me a copy, just in case I need it. If you e-mail me, I'll send you my snail mail address.

Two little points to think about here.

1) You fly from the left seat, not the right.

2) Chuck doesn't have a CFI licence.

Well that is how it used to be!!!

Also you will need to be 206 type rated on your UK licence in order to even consider logging it. (unless you have a full US licence which isn't type specific)

The folk story is many years old and as I heard it the CAA refused to allow hours in the US logged during traffic reporting due to flying left seat and that two pilots can't log PIC. Chuck was logging it but didn't have a CFI licence and he was in the right seat so as soon as he logged you couldn't.

Things to think about: The people that made this rule could have left the CAA.

He that holds the controls should be P1 whatever anyone says regardless of which side they sit..... But the CAA might think differently.

I have no hard facts and know many Europeans that have done it. All have had no problems with the CAA or employers but don't do too many hours as then it will get questioned.

Any problems logging P1 time in LA B206?
 

I've been through all of Whirlybird's and others threads about flying with Chuck and Phillipe on the 206 News copter / tourist helicopter hours building program in LA. Seems like great experience and fun (thanks for the info Whirly and Flying Lawyer). I'm already in the U.S. so thinking about going for it myself.

However, the issue over whether or not there'd be problems logging the time as P1 is a concern as I'm aiming to do 100+hrs so I will definitely want them to count - anyone had a problem with this or got a definitive answer / piece of paper from the CAA saying it's ok?

I've (almost) got a JAA CPL(H) (and FAA PPLH) with 206 type rating and did 40hrs dual in the 206 for my CPL, including the GFT so they'd be just hoursbuilding, not part of my CPL hours.

If there are problems, do you think just converting to an FAA CPL(H) first would solve them?

Someone (seniorish) from the CAA SRG group is out moderating our exams next week as we're the first batch of Heli ATP exam takers so I'll see what he has to say and will let you know...

Cheers

This is a grey area which has never had a definitive answer, only rumour and could possibly be better left that way and not bothering a CAA offical over. Hate for them to make a negative ruling!!!

The problem in the past stemed from guys doing the flying without a type rating and then claiming it as P1.

Under US regulations, either PPL or CPL a type isn't required but CAA/JAA does require one.

In your situation you have a JAA type rating for a 206 and a US PPL(H), plus will fly the aircraft with controls in YOUR hands, so you can log it as P1 on either licence, regardless of which seat you sit in.

Can't personally see the point in doing over 100 hours though, as on your return to the UK it is fairly well known that this is little more than an hour builder and won't put you in any superior position in a job hunt than someone with a bare CPL(H). Can't exactly put 'employer' LA trafficwatch on your resume to cover the hours!!!

In my humble opinion your money would be better spent on hunting for your first position.

As far as the UK CAA acceptance of these hours is concerned I know of lots of people who have done the flying, logged the time as P1 and the CAA have not pulled them up for it. I have heard second hand of people who have been pulled up for it and whose logged P1 time has been disallowed.

Pre JAR FCL, CAP 53 and 54 had a page that set out (fairly) clearly what you could count. At that stage one of the key features (as far as the CAA were conerned) was that only one pilot could claim P1 for a flight. I believe that under other "rulemakers" a number of pilots can claim P1 for a flight.

I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA directly cos you know what answer you will get - the one that makes it more expensive for you!

Rotorbike,

That need to be type rated in a Bell 206 before you can log PIC time is another distinction between the US and "East Atlantic" thinking.

In the US, an FAA type rating Board determines if the helicopter has strange enough characteristics to warrant requiring a separate type rating. Only if the aircraft is above 12,500 pounds GW is one absolutely established. I know of no helo below 12,500 pounds that requires a type rating.

For Private and Commercial pilots, they can move between virtually all helicopters below 12,500 pounds without a formal Type rating. Only insurance regulations require a check-out by an IP, there is no FAA compulsion to do so, and the check-out is not applied to your pilot's certificate, it is meerly logged.

The exception is those who fly PT 135 and PT 127, where their Ops Manuals always require a type check, and thus a type rating.

Rotorbike,

Thanks - I need another 100 hours before I could go on the FI course anyway (300 total), it's also cheaper than renting an R22 ($120/hour compared to $165/hour).

I'm getting the impression the hours are not seen as pucker (geniune) in some way, even by prospective employers. I would have thought this would be more valuable experience than hopping in an R22 for 100 hours doing the $200 hamburger? Is that not so..?

buttline,

I think how people view hours flown depends upon what work you are wanting to do.

Almost all my hours building towards my FI rating was in a R22, but I was going to instruct on the R22 and do my FI course on it too. It therefore made sense that the majority of my time was R22 time. As I recall, I found the FI course and early instruction very stretching and needed all the R22 experience I could get.

If you are to start instructing have as much time as you can get on what you are to instruct on.

Rotorbike,

To add to Nick's answer on US stuff, while I could gain all the time I wanted with Capt Street, etc. and claim those hours, it would basically be meaningless (IMO) unless it consisted of my doing the starts/shutdowns/emerg procedures, etc. It's great to log the Turbine time, but everyone out there would know it was just that, flying it. Yes, it builds hours, but that's all.

(I'll allow that I don't know what he will allow you to do etc. But stand by my assertion of what is important about the time logged)

I would say that to me, if I were to do that, I'd get that time in the air, then get the factory school out of the way too.

I haven't flown with Chuck for a while but from what I recall it's no starts, but plenty of pinnacle work and all the other general flying things.

But.. I think if you are prepared to spend lots of $$ with him and he is happy with you then he becomes much more relaxed and will let you do the starts...

Why not drop him an email from his website?

Chuck Street adapts to what you want to do, and the amount of flying you do with him.

Some PPLs are happy to do a few trips just flying around getting cheap turbine time in a different environment, wonderful scenery, great sightseeing and, best of all, the freedom of flying under sensible FAA regs without all the restrictions the CAA imposes in the UK.

But, if you show you can fly a B206 and want to do more than sightseeing, he'll adapt. Pinnacle landings, confined area, rooftop helipads etc.

Do the CAA allow the hours?
Sensible advice already given, so I won't repeat it.
I've not heard of anyone whose hours with either of the ENG operators in LA have been disallowed by the CAA. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've not heard.

Is it useful time?
Matter of opinion. I think it is. Why not try it for a week and decide for yourself?
But, plan ahead. They are both usually heavily booked.

Can someone explain how this is legal. I have alwyas wondered this. How can a ppl or someone "hour building" fly while the operator is flying for hire or reward. You are flying an aricraft that is getting paid to do commerical work. Seems kind of grey area to me...

But what do I know

mayby ill get the copy of the FAR's that is holding the door open at the helibase and see what I can find.

Anyone else ever wondered this?


RB

rotorboy,
The key is that those operators are Part 91 operations, because they take no external compensation for the use of the helo, they do no charter, carry no passengers, etc. For example, all the airframe manufacturers operate under Part 91.

The guest pilots only share in the expenses, they do not pay airfare.

Nick,

I can see how that applies to the traffic news copter but I believe one of them is also a tourist flight machine.....

Quote from the website: "xxxxxxx offers private and commercial pilots the opportunity to fly the BELL 206 Jet Ranger BIII during sightseeing tours in Los Angeles"

I took this to mean I'd fly it with tourists in the back. It's highly unlikely that the only payload is the hourbuilding pilot at $120/hour..

Cheers,
Barry

Nonstop sightseeing flights conducted with aircraft having a passenger seat configuration of 30 or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, that begin and end at the same airport, and are conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of that airport also come under Part 91.

Hours building artilce- input requested!
 

Hello Rotorheads,

I’m currently a student commercial pilot (the lowest of the low) studying in Australia. I’m also a freelance journalist exiled from the dot com world of up and permanently down. Anyway I’m working on an article for the industry’s greatest pub, Heli-Ops regarding hours building options for low hour (<500) commercial pilots internationally. The goal of the article is to provide an overview of the options available and also to come up with some new ideas for both operators and pilots. To focus the potential discussion a bit my initial questions are this: Does the ultra-competitive nature of the industry make paid or work for free hours building options practically mandatory for a majority of new pilots and if so what are some of the better options? Do any operators have in-house hours building programs and if so who? Finally, any fresh ideas for building hours that would benefit both pilots and operators? Thanks so much for your time and ideas.

Okay, there is no easy way to build hours for a low time cpl unless you're lucky and get work straight away with someone prepared to give you a break. I think that in this industry, a lot of it is "who you know, not what you know".
Going the "flying for free" route will only get you a bad name. The reason being why should an employer pay someone to fly when someone will do it for free, which has the knock on effect of lower pay rates or no pay rates! Guaranteed to make you popular in the helicopter community.
Secondly, in the UK it has cost me probably £50k+, to get my licences, ratings etc and if someone comes along and stops me earning money with that licence,(if I ever manage to find work) I wouldn't be happy!!!!!!

I personally wouldn't advise anyone to go for a commercial licence at the minute but that's my personal opinion right now, unless of course, daddy just happens to own a helicopter and lets you have use of it to hour build. Oh, and buys you an AOC too.