Dave
 

Only one place to go down here...

Call Luis Rollan at Intercopters +34 607 325 386 (www.intercopters.com)

He's at Cuatro Vientos (Four Winds) airport, Madrid, and tell him Dan Coughlan sent you.

Luis has a couple of R22's and a R44 available, I think. He'll sort you out. He's also the Robinson importer/maintainer, so you should find all you need.

Let me know if you're flying down south; Malaga, Granada, etc, and I'll show you where all the good bars are, too.
Good luck
Dan

Hour building in Spain
 

Not sure about the rules re "advertising" on PPrune, but if Luis Rollan can be mentioned, then I would like to suggest Sloane Helicopters SL in Mallorca who have R22s and R44s and all the CAA Approvals. Contact Mark Corbett - +34 971 794132 / +34 639 702411(Mobile). They are a wholly owned subsidiary of Sloane Helicopters in UK.

building hours
 

hi ppl,

I have just started my ppl(h) on my way to getting cpl(h). once i have got my ppl(h) is it ok to build all the hours in the us before doing my cpl(h) course in the uk? I am trying to get my cost down as much as possible for obvious reasons.

Many thanks,

bill

bill:

Unless you've got a rich recently deceased relative, or are leaving the stockbroking profession to go into helicopters, then the US - or Oz - is one of the best places to get value for money., and as long as the hours are P1 on a type you have in your logbook, then it's all kosher.

I did it this way, so did a fair few others who frequent here. The rules have slightly changed though - check "Wannabees" because there's CAA / FAA forms and the like you need before you arrive.

Wanted Cheap Self Fly Hire R22-Florida or Anywhere!
 

Can Anyone help me out here please??
I need to build another 100 hours towards my UK Rotary Instructors course as cheap as possible.
Can anyone please give me some suggestions/hints/prices in say Florida or anywhere else that I can buy some time. R22 would probably be the cheapest. Will have my UK CPLH by then with the ink still Wet!
Thanks again.


Brian

Brian

There is a companey that charges $130 hr (wet) self fly. I am in the UK for 2 weeks on vacation but will post the number when I get back to the office. They advertise in most of the usual places

Brian (also)

Brian:

Send me an email, as I have an R-22B that I offer block time in wet ($130.00) or dry ($110.00) for a 100 hour block. Let me know if you are seriously interested. You could reasonably expect to fly off 100 hours in about a month...


Regards,
Patty
[email protected]

R22Sfh
 

Nervy, Child of the Sky's and In the swamp.
Thanks vry much guys for your help and I will pass on the info to my buddy who will get in touch.
Cheers for now and have a safe one!

Brian

Roxy,
check your PM's!
:cool:

how do you build heli time?
 

If most helicopter pilot employers, such as EMS for example, required thousands of helicopter hours, i.e. 3000+ hours...and knowing the cost of each hour in a helicopter...how someone with a CPL(H) and some 100 hours or so of heli time get to 2 or 3 thousands hours?

CFI(H) positions seem to be extremely rare...as for every 30 fixed-wing flight schools there is one heli flight school....

so where di you pull the 3000 hours from to get that job flying a turbine heli with a reasonable pay?

In fixed-wing world, 9 out of 10 aspiring pilots will become CFIs and build anywhere from 1000 to 2000 hours before going for charter/corporate/regional jobs flying turbines...

seems in the heli world is even more hellish ;)

Archer

Of course it's more helllish. The helicopter industry is tiny in comparison to the fixed-wing industry. For an all-civilian pilot who wants to fly helicopters for money, we have fewer and less clearly defined paths to "success." Much of it depends on a combination of luck, timing, and your personal ability to be charming and pursuasive. Throw in dedication, talent, a higher-than-average skill level and a willingness to relocate anywhere/anytime, and you might find the going fairly easy. But even "fairly easy" is a relative and controversial term.

For many of us, if at the beginning of our careers we really sat down and thought about *how* we were going to do it, we never would've even tried. And in a way, if you have to ask, perhaps you shouldn't. Try, that is. If you have that burning passion to fly helicopters for a living, then by God just go do it. Get your CFI, and your double-I and get to work. But know up front that it's a crapshoot. Remember too that 1,000 hours will not come overnight. It won't take one year, either. It'll take two, three or four years. Maybe more!

In our industry, opportunities generally don't fall in your lap. (Actually, they do, but not often enough to count on.) But you have to be in the game. Like I said, if you worry too much you will get discouraged. So take the long view. The really long view.

And network! Go out and actually meet working helicopter pilots. Become friends with them.

I met a young fixed-wing pilot once who desperately (and idiotically) wanted to become me. He sort of latched on to me, pumping me for industry info. He had spunk, and an infinite level of enthusiasm for helicopters. And although we did not live anywhere near each other, we became friends. Once he got his r/w CFI, he was having trouble finding a job. I happened to come across a flight school that taught in airplanes, an R-22 and a Bell 47.

Out of the blue, I wrote to the owner of the school. I did not know whether they had any openings, but since I know this industry it was a fairly safe bet that they either did or would shortly. I introduced and described myself, and respectfully asked the owner that if he was ever in need of an instructor, he consider my young friend. This elicited a positive response, and my friend did go to work for them where he was able to build some really solid experience. This job lead to another job, which lead to... You get the picture.

The bottom line is that there are no easy ways to do it. You cast your lot and roll the dice. Most likely, you'll be stuck for years as a CFI as my friend was (even with my "help"). I wish it were not so. I wish that there was a more encouraging message we could give aspiring helicopter pilots who want this as a career. But unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

Good luck!

Well, for the past 2 years I've been gaining information on fixed-wing career paths, and the rotary wing thing is just a curiosity, perhaps one day an option.

I just find the path for both fixed wing, and more so rotary wing very amazing, discouraging and wrong.

Young people who want to live their lives in the skies...have to put up with immense sums of money for training and only a couple of paths to their dream job.

Becoming an instructor, fixed wing or rotary, seems the only choice, as that's the only way to get hired with a couple hundred hours...

The requirements are out there. Most employers that have decent pay checks require thousands of hours of flight time, whether fixed or rotary.

The only employers that will hire at a couple of hundred hours are flight schools.

So the only path seems, pay $$$ to train, bust your but, get hired as a CFI, whether you like it or not, live miserably for several years trying to build time and working nearly for free to finally end up to where you want to be (maybe), when you are old, in debt, and lived miserably for a lot of precious, irrecuperable years...

seems best thing to do is find a non-flying job, make some money, but an R22 or a Piper, build time over the years...and then apply for jobs once you have those thousands of hours...

The best and cheapest way because of the comments above, is to join the military and get paid to learn. Yes, you do require a certain education level and age bracket but you do get top training and experience for your after life and paid well to get it.
If it doesn't suit, then you have to do what is said above.:D

I agree with all the above comments.

The industry is still able to find pilots with the required experience and hours because there are sufficient ex-mil guys who are still of a working age.

This has been made worse by the airlines laying off pilots over the past couple of years, some of whom were previously flying the rigs, so these chaps have "become available" to the rotary market once more.

Also, the North Sea is a diminished market, reducing the demand for pilots. It is this that has driven the UK market for some years.

Because of the prevailing short-term profit mentality, rotary employers have been obliged and able to reduce their ab-initio training input to vitually nil and have had no reason to take on low-timers.

However, certainly in the UK market, the pilot population is ageing so this cannot continue indefinitely.

Although my comments are really in context of the UK, I think this is a world trend.

so what are the biggest helicopter markets?

I read that EMS is the "majors" of helicopters...

I also see that Fire, Law Enforcement, and News/Traffic watch are pretty big too...

off shore rig-related jobs are popular too it seems.

what about corporate? private helicopter oweners, either businesses or individuals?

Another way to look at it is that with a bare commercial licence you don't have the skills, ability or experience to actually do many of the jobs available in the aviation industry.

Hours flown is a quantitive measure of your experience and it is all well and good to dream about glamour jobs and wish they were available straight up but the bottom line is that someone without the experience would find themselves in a world of trouble from day one in almost all helicopter operations. From what I have seen and experienced it takes a lot of time, caution, nurturing and a bit of luck to get a pilot to an acceptable commercial level once they have started with their first employer.

It is a good idea to make sure that your bucket of experience is quite full before your bucket of luck is empty.

If you a looking to stay alive and have a long and prosperous aviation career you need to deal with the fact that when you first get that commercial licence you don't know sh1t !!. I can't think of too many worthwhile careers in any industry where you get to start at the top.

I think offshore is the largest segment - there are close to 1000 helicopters operating in the Gulf of Mexico. EMS is close to that size, perhaps, but it's spread out.

The way most of us built time is with the military. We're starting to see more civilian-only pilots, but they're still the vast minority. It costs so much to get a helicopter commercial license, and then get the required time, that it's just not economically viable, given the low pay involved. Helicopter pilots, on average, make less than fixed-wing pilots.

Absolutely the only reason I'm flying helicopters is the free training and flight time I got from my rich uncle, Sam. All I had to give in return was several years of being a target for people who didn't like U.S. military helicopters.

I can't see why anybody would have a problem with that type of flying, it is exposure to real life commercial work, I suppose a fair bit would be just straight and level, and OGE hovering but isn't most flying.

Operators who are willing to employ pipe line patrolers but have a grudge against Traffic watch pilots need there head examined, they are legit hours as far as I know, for most people it is the only realistic way to build turbine time, would you sooner let someone loose with 50 hours on a 206 and commercial work or somebody with just a type rating and 5 or 6 hours.

Good topic, will be interested to see the response, would also be interested as to why this practice is not more widespread.:ouch:

" .....would also be interested as to why this practice is not more widespread."

The two places I know where you can do it (both in LA) are always heavily booked. You either have to book a few months in advance or take a chance on a short notice cancellation.

Quindici,

The fact that there is a CFI in one of the driving seats does not end the "legal" issues. This has been discussed at length in previous threads, but as far as some regulators are concerned, it is possible/probable that they would not consider such flying to represent loggable P1 time for the person buying flight time - I am talking mainly here about the good old UK CAA and (these days) their interpretation of JAR-FCL and the ANO. Perhaps you are not particularly keen to acquire the experience as P1 time, in which case there may be no problem?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it has no value - it could be useful experience - but you need to be quite clear what you are hoping to achieve from it.

Lots have done it, and used it as a useful way of leaping one of the (many) hurdles to progress in this crazy game.

Probably the best thing to do is talk to the people who you are thinking fo getting work from when you have acquired those precious hours.

co-pilot job....
 

:cool:
The real point of this thread is "Where can you get a co-pilot job with 500 hs!?!":ok: No, seriously, where?

Time is time. You don't have to be flying NOE for it to be "real" time. I think the only legal issue is whether the person flying is a licensed commercial pilot. If so the occupant of the other seat can be the owner's Jack Russel because then it's just an insurance issue. Besides the dog probably has the TT and time in type to meet the insur. requirements.:D

quindici,

Are the companies you have seen in the UK? The only one I have seen in the US is Air Methods, but I haven't seen an SIC position posted in awhile.

I'm always amused at low-timers who ask silly question like, "Are my 376 hours of flight instructing better than 244.3 hours of flying left-seat in a traffic-watch 206?"

Look people, flight time is flight time. When I hire a pilot, the FIRST thing I look for is: Is this person comfortable and "at home" at the controls? Even if he's never been in a 206 before, a helicopter is a helicopter so he/she shouldn't look too lost. Will he be able to adapt without constantly whining, "That's not how we do it in the R-22." If he claims to have 206 time, does he even know where the Battery switch is? Can he explain how the various systems work? Can he explain how a turbine is different from a piston?

Nobody expects low-timers to fly like Yeager or even like me (although the difference is so slight as to be unnoticeable). But I do expect that a pilot applying for a commercial position should be able to find his way around a traffic pattern without too much drama or angst no matter what ship he's in. You just fly as if you're totally in command - like you know what you're doing (fake it if you have to), and I'll teach you the intricacies of the particular aircraft.

Has anybody here actually flown with either of these guys to get the turbine time? I am just wondering how it works, does he just explain everything to you and you go fly? Or, is it more like, he takes care of everything and all you need to do is fly while he is taking pictures, or giving the radio report? Im just looking to get a better idea of what kind of flying is done here.

I wrote: I'm always amused at low-timers who ask silly question like, "Are my 376 hours of flight instructing better than 244.3 hours of flying left-seat in a traffic-watch 206?"

Quindici shot back:I'm sorry, did I ask that? How many times have you been asked that, incidentally?Jeez, don't be so testy, Robbieboi. I was merely pointing out that the question has been asked, and for the most part it is moot. It matters not...to me, anyway. If you're not flying right-seat in a 206...if you're not starting it up and shutting it down, then you're *not* getting 206/turbine time.

Whenever hours building with one of the LA traffic watch operators comes up, someone always says the CAA won't allow you to count those hours for the purpose of satisfying minimum hours requirements - obtaining a professional licence etc.

Both places have been offering hours-building for years, both are well-known and both often have UK pilots. The CAA must know about them, must know the regs of the Jetrangers and/or if they see a block of LA flying from Van Nuys or Fullerton, 3 hours every morning and 2 hours every evening at almost exactly the same times every day, they must realise it's traffic watch time. So, if the CAA takes this approach, there should be quite a few people around who can confirm it.
Where are they? I've never met anyone who's had this happen to them. The CAA is criticised for many things, often with justification, but I wonder if this one's true or just an urban myth.

Does anyone know a pilot who's had his/her traffic watch hours rejected by the CAA?
NB: I mean know.
Not 'I heard from someone who heard from someone else who had a cousin whose friend I didn't actually talk to myself, said .........'
Not 'One of the instructors at my school told me the CAA won't count the hours.'


BTW, I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA, or drawing their attention to traffic watch hours if you have them. It may be a grey area to which they sensibly turn a blind eye - they can't do that if they're forced to give a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

I did a week of Traffic Watch in Van Nuys, and the B206 conversion there. The CAA accepted the hours - only 25 hours anyway - and I got the impression there was only a problem with that if you had hundreds of hours of Traffic Watch, but I don't actually know. I did all the flying, but not the start-up and shutdown generally , though I was taught to do it. When there wasn't too much to do, we went off and did circuits and confined area approaches and other stuff like that. It was good, it was cheap, it was lots of fun, I learned a lot. But to some extent you get what you pay for, and I'm not convinced it was as good as a "traditional" turbine conversion. But I couldn't afford that, and never kept up my B206 flying anyway, for that reason. :ok:

Quindici:Quite right! My point was exactly that. Left seat/right seat...flight time is flight time. What I was pointing out was that if the traffic watch pilot does not let you sit in the right seat, do the start, shut it down, pull the rotor brake, flip the switches...all that stuff, then you might as well be flying anything else- it really has no significance that you're in a 206.

Furthermore, while the experience of driving around the L.A. basin is valuable in and of itself, you probably won't be doing high-GW/confined-area stuff, or pinnacle landings, or autos...so you better come to me SUPER-SHARP on Class B ops, radio procedures (monitoring more than one at a time), knowing how/where to look for traffic (the airborne kind), etc. I've flown with helicopter pilots who seemed to have very little awareness of fixed-wing patterns and habits.

Let me also point out that flying straight and level in a JR will tell you absolutely zilch about how it hovers (unless the pilot lets you do some hover work before and after each flight - which I doubt if the ship is stored on a dolly or platform). And believe me, there are those of us who can tell in an instant whether the applicant (supplicant?) next to us has ever picked up and hovered a 206 before.

So how valuable is this flight time? As I said, it depends on the individual. It depends on what YOU make of it. If a pilot came to me with such experience I would not be prejudiced against him, but I would expect a lot...a LOT. In fact, at the end of the day that experience might work against him, because if someone claimed to have X-amount of 206 time, I would be disinclined to accept the excuse, "I wasn't allowed to do that."

See what I mean?

In this case, I agree with PF#1.

If the interviewee has the skills and confidence, the hours are a confirmation of where he obtained this ability. If the ability/skills are lacking despite the logbook entries, then warning flags fly.

I would also ask how the hours are being logged. If the 'CFI' is logging P1 and its a jetranger, are you trying to log P2 or dual?? Under Canadian rules it would be difficult to log other than dual.

quindici:

I take a slightly different view, based on my own experience. I'd take the person I knew best and whose capabilities I knew and understood over a walk-in unless that person had substantialy more experience.

Why do I say that ? If you hour build at one place, and do the right things, and show willing, and show them you're the right stuff, they may let you fly ferry flights, and eventually offer pleasure flying work - "to start withand see how you go". If you do non-flying work for another company, and are in the right place at the right time, you may be offered work flying their new helicopter on pleasure flights.

My advice - get the 500 hours, with a mix of traffic flying, solo x-c, dual and solo high altitude at high AUW, and anything else a bit different. Putting one big tick in one box is good, putting lots of smaller ticks in lots of other boxes even better.

Quindici, I was thinking about this as I was driving home from work today. You did ask about pursuing a job as a co-jo, and we didn't really address it from that angle. I guess the "problem" with helicopter aviation is that there are so few copilot slots open that we really don't have any experience applying for them or hiring people to fill them.

But let me offer my best guess: It won't matter. In this business, too much depends on the individual. You could have 500 hours of mostly traffic watch and the other guy could have 500 hours in R-22's. You and your competitor are the same age and have exactly the same ratings and other quals (e.g. college or whatever). Who's going to get hired? It's likely a toss-up. It'll come down to who gives the best interview. Or who presents himself the best. Or how the Chief Pilot feels that day.

From the low-timer's POV, 500 hours is a lot. But from *our* POV, that amount of time is nothing. At that stage, you're all about equal in our eyes, no offense intended. Seriously, it would come down to personalities. Which one do I feel would stay with us longer? Which one is more trainable? Which one will get along with our PIC's the best?

(Here's a dirty little secret about our industry: When it comes right down to it, even PIC's are hired this way, sometimes despite the fact that there's someone more qualified for the job. If I don't think I'm going to get along with you, you could be Orville Wright and I'd send you back to repairing bicycles.)

For a job like this, it's *probably* not about the type of flight time you have. So I'll give you this free gem of interview advice: Whichever way you decide to go, be charming.

Again, PF#1 said it well.

Only thing I can add is that if you have 500 hours it would be nice to see you have been employed before.

So in my opinion 500 hours total with 250 R22 instructing hours against 250 all paid for doing trafficwatch I'd employ the R22 guy as he shows an employment history.

To stick in my twopennorth - and I'm not being humble, just realistic - I think I've learned more overall from the miniscule bit of instructing I've done than from the miniscule bit of Traffic Watch I did.

IMOH the flight instructing is by far the best. Can never figure out why its slagged off... if you read the article in the back page of R. and W. this month you will see Tim McAdams address this sort of stuff.
Yes, any time is better than no time but operating at the limit of the aircraft, making command decisions and building your instincts is of tremendous value. Your handling skills will improve ten fold even if youre not on the controls much. And dont forget that you will be doing those same moanouvers once every six months for the rest of your life so having a good grounding in autos etc is a big help... afterall a SE run on landing in a 412 is exactly the same as the running landings you used to do in the R22. Poleing a 206 in ENG... (which doesnt need to be hugely accurate flying), with someone else making the decisions is better than nothing but hardly of tremendous value.

Are you sure you have to book Chuck Street through Group3?
Maybe things have changed, but I've seen posts by people who've booked direct.
Website: Commander Chuck
E-mail: [email protected]

BTW, I don't think he's an instructor, although by all accounts he's a very experienced B206 pilot, a good teacher and will teach if the pilot wants that. I'm not sure it matters if he's an instructor for hours-building purposes. The FAA don't have type ratings and you'll be flying on an FAA ticket in American airspace.
If you need a JAA/CAA type rating at home, you'll need to do a conversion - but that should be a doddle after a week flying the B206.

You say the cost of self-fly is much the same. :confused:
Do you mean by cost sharing? Or have you found somewhere you can SFH a B206 for $135 per hour. If the latter, I think people needing turbine time would be very keen to know where it is! :D

..... if you both plan to log the time one of you would have to be a CFI.
Both logging the time isn't the issue. If you do the flying, you're entitled to log the time. Insurance/contract with the radio station don't affect that.
Insurance and legality would depend on the insurance policy and the terms of the contract with the radio station.
Is it a commercial or private flight? eg Is the operator being paid to fly the helicopter or to provide traffic reports by whatever means he chooses?

quindici

In my opinion any commercial experience, including flight instruction, would be more benefical than flying trafficwatch for more than 5-10% of your 500 hours total.

As a flight instructor you won't just do instruction as photo flights or tourist flights will form a part of your weekly work. As the NR Fairy said it is very important to show a broad spectrum of flight experience in your 'limited' flight time.

You say your intention is to gain 500 hours and gain work as a co-pilot. But if this hole disappears what is your intention then?? Have you a plan 'B'.

I don't believe that a previous life as an accountant or anything else shows that you would make an excellent co-pilot. CHC Scotia failures during training are testamount to the difficulties of finding the correct people.

So IF I was looking for a new hire with about 500 hours I would be looking for a little more than someone that had purchased their flight time doing trafficwatch.

Have you considered tuna spotting work??? Or is your goal to be a co-pilot in the North Sea??

With a civilian background myself, I do feel that flight instruction started me in the right direction so I maybe biased in my reply.

By coincidence, this article is in today's New York Times.

Skybound Los Angeles Traffic Reporter Sees Job as a Dying Art

LOS ANGELES, March 12 - The first voice many Los Angeles commuters hear in the morning, when the clock radio bleats at 6, is that of Cmdr. Chuck Street, talking about traffic. He knows this, and so tries to put the good before the bad, to set a meditative mood with a poetic description of the rain, say, before launching into the annoyances or horrors of the day.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/...copt.large.jpg

How about this for ingenuity in getting a job? Link to full story in the New York Times

I spent a week with Chuck in 1997. For a PPL, it was a fantastic experience and, although I'm not qualified to judge, for what it's worth, I suspect 20-25 hours might be useful for a new CPL or someone hours building for a CPL.
If the pilot's interested, it's not just straight and level. In our breaks, we practised pinnacle landings, confined areas and roof-top helipad ops.
Useful experience, extremely enjoyable and very cheap 206 flying. Recommended. :ok:

Merged threads.