Cyclic climb after entering autorotation
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Rich,
After reading the reply above, I will go back and study the death snail with a renewed interest. The points you make above have considerable relevance to the discussion…..as I am sure, in hindsight, the death snail did too.
I too would like to sow my ‘flower’ seeds with a useable penis. Risk assessment is the way we can guarantee a good crop. Hopefully others will be able to nibble on my fruits (bountiful as of course they are)
CJ,
I must admit that I am interested to hear what you gain by hovering at 15 feet? As I understand it, the original hover height for the R22 was increased due to potential ground contact in the training environment when students got the inevitable wobbles learning to hover. Can we assume you can now hover?
You will also probably find that 90% if not more (my numbers) of the dynamic rollover accidents occurred at lift off as apposed to hover taxiing. Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that the risks of catching a skid are far greater while still on the ground………and not at double the Robinson recommended hover height or below.
Stand your ground CJ, you have probably heard this all before…………
After reading the reply above, I will go back and study the death snail with a renewed interest. The points you make above have considerable relevance to the discussion…..as I am sure, in hindsight, the death snail did too.
I too would like to sow my ‘flower’ seeds with a useable penis. Risk assessment is the way we can guarantee a good crop. Hopefully others will be able to nibble on my fruits (bountiful as of course they are)
CJ,
I must admit that I am interested to hear what you gain by hovering at 15 feet? As I understand it, the original hover height for the R22 was increased due to potential ground contact in the training environment when students got the inevitable wobbles learning to hover. Can we assume you can now hover?
You will also probably find that 90% if not more (my numbers) of the dynamic rollover accidents occurred at lift off as apposed to hover taxiing. Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that the risks of catching a skid are far greater while still on the ground………and not at double the Robinson recommended hover height or below.
Stand your ground CJ, you have probably heard this all before…………
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Autosync,
Yes I'm 19. Like that makes any difference anyway. You don't have to be a test pilot to have an opinion on something like this. I wouldn't sit down with Nick Lappos and discuss the merits of different angles of blade twist because I know nothing about it.
The reason I replied to this post was because having tried a similar maneuver I believe I have an opinion which might be worth adding to the discussion that is taking place here. Just because I'm 19 doesn't mean I can't fly. If you want to discuss this matter then do so, if you want to criticise me, send me a PM. Leave the board to what it's for - discussing aviation.
===
Although I think the technique might have some use, I can see the downfall of teaching a student how to do it. No matter how much you stress that it is only a last resort, someone who is not continually practising auto's may be at their mental capacity coping with an emergency. For them to try and complete a climb in the auto to miss a fence might be a bit of an overload for the average PPL. My instructor used to always say the two things I had to remember in an auto were "Rotor RPM and make your spot". It might be a better idea to teach students to really really pick the best landing site they can if the noise stops.
Yes I'm 19. Like that makes any difference anyway. You don't have to be a test pilot to have an opinion on something like this. I wouldn't sit down with Nick Lappos and discuss the merits of different angles of blade twist because I know nothing about it.
The reason I replied to this post was because having tried a similar maneuver I believe I have an opinion which might be worth adding to the discussion that is taking place here. Just because I'm 19 doesn't mean I can't fly. If you want to discuss this matter then do so, if you want to criticise me, send me a PM. Leave the board to what it's for - discussing aviation.
===
Although I think the technique might have some use, I can see the downfall of teaching a student how to do it. No matter how much you stress that it is only a last resort, someone who is not continually practising auto's may be at their mental capacity coping with an emergency. For them to try and complete a climb in the auto to miss a fence might be a bit of an overload for the average PPL. My instructor used to always say the two things I had to remember in an auto were "Rotor RPM and make your spot". It might be a better idea to teach students to really really pick the best landing site they can if the noise stops.
Oh man! What have I been missing here!
Rich Lee wrote:
Few...as in "none?" At low speed, trying to "pop-up" will only result in a loss of both your RRPM and what little airspeed you already had. Bad idea in a high-inertia system like a B206. Horrid idea in anything else. I can't imagine any scenario in which being at 100-150 feet with no airspeed and no rotor rpm would be preferable to just flaring and cushioning the landing with all of the available pitch. But that's just me. Because even if you do "pop-up" to 150 feet and see a good site, you're not going to be able to drive to it; you're pretty much going to fall straight down from that point.
Then, this genius CJ Eliassen remarks:
Sir, perhaps that is because those engine failures occurred whilst the Robbo was at a proper hover-height? If so, you'd likely never read about them...like we'll read about yours. But you go, boy! Don't let anyone tell *you* that something you do is unsafe. Fark 'em!
Hovering an R-22 at 15 feet is daft. But hey, you're the expert! Personally, if I were you, I'd work on my hovering skills so that I wouldn't have this irrational fear of dynamic rollover. Oh...umm, remind me not to send my kids up on a sightseeing flight with you, 'k?
Finally, a 19 year-old boy, "Captain" Eagle telling us that he's been out playing with himself...oh sorry, "by" himself in an R-44.
Wow. Sure got a nice bunch o' test pilots here. Glad I'm just an old-timer who just goes by the numbers and procedures in the AFM...you know, the ones derived by real test pilots. Maybe that's how I've survived 10,000+ hours with my penis (mostly) intact.
Rich Lee wrote:
Few experienced helicopter pilots will advocate low speed, low level pop-ups as a realistic engine failure response...
Then, this genius CJ Eliassen remarks:
I do many things that other pilots consider unsafe because I know things they do not. For example, I hover at 15 feet in an R-22. #1, I have been taught successful hovering autos from this height, and #2, over 90 helicopters have been destroyed by dynamic rollover and none have been damaged from an engine failure in a hover.
Hovering an R-22 at 15 feet is daft. But hey, you're the expert! Personally, if I were you, I'd work on my hovering skills so that I wouldn't have this irrational fear of dynamic rollover. Oh...umm, remind me not to send my kids up on a sightseeing flight with you, 'k?
Finally, a 19 year-old boy, "Captain" Eagle telling us that he's been out playing with himself...oh sorry, "by" himself in an R-44.
Wow. Sure got a nice bunch o' test pilots here. Glad I'm just an old-timer who just goes by the numbers and procedures in the AFM...you know, the ones derived by real test pilots. Maybe that's how I've survived 10,000+ hours with my penis (mostly) intact.
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So much for the PROFESSIONAL pilot network. I guess you guess already know everything already.
Rich,
You must have a weak spine to be hurt from a hovering auto at 15 feet. Heck, I can jump from that height without injury. And if a hovering auto can be successfully done from 15 feet, whats the risk?
Hingeless,
Most dynamic roll over accidents occur with students learning to hover.
Prune Fan,
Can you try and show some intelligence?
Rich,
You must have a weak spine to be hurt from a hovering auto at 15 feet. Heck, I can jump from that height without injury. And if a hovering auto can be successfully done from 15 feet, whats the risk?
Hingeless,
Most dynamic roll over accidents occur with students learning to hover.
Prune Fan,
Can you try and show some intelligence?
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All
I love this thread! What daring, what outrageousness, what innocense, what outright arrogance!
CJ
"You must have a weak spine to be hurt from a hovering auto at 15 feet."
Although I do not have a "super spine", my spine has served me well all these years. I have no aches, pains, or injuries after many years of flying and high altitude mountaineering. Given the differance in our age, my spine is probably not as strong, or as supple as yours. Given your "strong spine" perhaps you would not be injured during a practice autorotation from 15 feet. Fail the engine while you hover at 15 feet, add normal pilot reaction time to your response, consider your remaining inertia, and then the risk of injury can no longer be ignored.
You have accepted this risk. You are betting that Textron Lycoming will never let you down. Perhaps you will win that bet. Should the day ever come that you confront a real engine failure, you are betting you will make all the right moves and not freeze like a deer in the headlights. Perhaps you will win that bet also.
My concern is that you are teaching students who may follow your example without a clear understanding of the risk they are assuming. They will believe that engines rarely, if ever, fail in the R-22. They will believe that a practice autorotation is the same as a real autorotation. They will believe that the risk of injury from dynamic rollover is orders of magnitude greater than the risk of an engine failure while hovering at 15 feet. They will believe that their strong, supple young spines cannot be injured.
"Heck, I can jump from that height without injury. And if a hovering auto can be successfully done from 15 feet, whats the risk?"
There is a reason why parachutists land on their feet. We all have weak spines in a sitting position. Part of this derives from the simple fact that after the lower part of your spine stops moving at final impact, the upper part continues in a whiplash motion. Spinal injury can occur just from compression due to the sudden stop.
Ignoring death, spinal chord injury is the greatest occupational threat facing a professional helicopter pilot. I hope that neither you nor your any of your students will have to live life in a wheel chair, unable to change your own colostimy bag because of an actual engine failure at 15 feet.
Charlie S. Charlie-Excellent insight sir!
PPrune Fan #1 "Few...as in "none?"
I did not want to misrepresent the opinion of the "entire" industry. Who knows, there might be one...somewhere..hey, it could happen...right?
Captain Eagle
Given your last response, I salute your wisdom. Your age is not relevant to the discussion.
Hingeless Rotor
May you sow your seed with wild abandon for an eternity. I have very little cream remaining in my twinky, but I remain very fond of it nonetheless. Ah, the Death Snail! Always relevant to any discussion in general and this in particular!
While I await the response of CJ, I think of Psalm 22 (King James Translation-forgive me if my recollection of the passage is in error):
At 15 in a Robbie
my engine doeth fail
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint:
my heart is like wax;
it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
and thou hast brought me to the dust of death.
I have heard that every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats and like S.A. Robinson's Miniver Cheevy, I do so miss the medieval grace of iron clothing. But hover at 15 feet in a Robbie?
In closing, I hope that you will always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn
I love this thread! What daring, what outrageousness, what innocense, what outright arrogance!
CJ
"You must have a weak spine to be hurt from a hovering auto at 15 feet."
Although I do not have a "super spine", my spine has served me well all these years. I have no aches, pains, or injuries after many years of flying and high altitude mountaineering. Given the differance in our age, my spine is probably not as strong, or as supple as yours. Given your "strong spine" perhaps you would not be injured during a practice autorotation from 15 feet. Fail the engine while you hover at 15 feet, add normal pilot reaction time to your response, consider your remaining inertia, and then the risk of injury can no longer be ignored.
You have accepted this risk. You are betting that Textron Lycoming will never let you down. Perhaps you will win that bet. Should the day ever come that you confront a real engine failure, you are betting you will make all the right moves and not freeze like a deer in the headlights. Perhaps you will win that bet also.
My concern is that you are teaching students who may follow your example without a clear understanding of the risk they are assuming. They will believe that engines rarely, if ever, fail in the R-22. They will believe that a practice autorotation is the same as a real autorotation. They will believe that the risk of injury from dynamic rollover is orders of magnitude greater than the risk of an engine failure while hovering at 15 feet. They will believe that their strong, supple young spines cannot be injured.
"Heck, I can jump from that height without injury. And if a hovering auto can be successfully done from 15 feet, whats the risk?"
There is a reason why parachutists land on their feet. We all have weak spines in a sitting position. Part of this derives from the simple fact that after the lower part of your spine stops moving at final impact, the upper part continues in a whiplash motion. Spinal injury can occur just from compression due to the sudden stop.
Ignoring death, spinal chord injury is the greatest occupational threat facing a professional helicopter pilot. I hope that neither you nor your any of your students will have to live life in a wheel chair, unable to change your own colostimy bag because of an actual engine failure at 15 feet.
Charlie S. Charlie-Excellent insight sir!
PPrune Fan #1 "Few...as in "none?"
I did not want to misrepresent the opinion of the "entire" industry. Who knows, there might be one...somewhere..hey, it could happen...right?
Captain Eagle
Given your last response, I salute your wisdom. Your age is not relevant to the discussion.
Hingeless Rotor
May you sow your seed with wild abandon for an eternity. I have very little cream remaining in my twinky, but I remain very fond of it nonetheless. Ah, the Death Snail! Always relevant to any discussion in general and this in particular!
While I await the response of CJ, I think of Psalm 22 (King James Translation-forgive me if my recollection of the passage is in error):
At 15 in a Robbie
my engine doeth fail
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint:
my heart is like wax;
it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
and thou hast brought me to the dust of death.
I have heard that every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats and like S.A. Robinson's Miniver Cheevy, I do so miss the medieval grace of iron clothing. But hover at 15 feet in a Robbie?
In closing, I hope that you will always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn
Standard UK mil training.
Trading speed off for height, but of course you have to be the fast side of 100+ kts to make it worth while.
I recall training studes to fly at 50/100' and about 100-120kts, chop the throttle, dump the lever and flare, flare, flare
The aim was to try to make a slot on the touchdown zone.
Fantastic feedback, probably the instructors dream sortie.
Mind you Gazelle's were very accomodating, wouldn't want to try it in a teetering head!
Trading speed off for height, but of course you have to be the fast side of 100+ kts to make it worth while.
I recall training studes to fly at 50/100' and about 100-120kts, chop the throttle, dump the lever and flare, flare, flare
The aim was to try to make a slot on the touchdown zone.
Fantastic feedback, probably the instructors dream sortie.
Mind you Gazelle's were very accomodating, wouldn't want to try it in a teetering head!
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I just want to know who had the raisens to teach you a 15' hover auto in a R22. Being with students in a 2' hover (for practice hover autos) ive had troubles before getting the helicopter nice and level and a good pull that it felt good. At 3' they would be much rougher but the 22 could probably take it. At 5 feet you just spread the skids. At 10 feet you are going to the hospital if for nothing else than to get the chunk of seat that your ass just ate out. At 15 feet your penis no longer salutes the hot chicks admiring your speed demon wheel chair.
Stay at 3' and just look where you are going. To teach hovering, find a better place that is nice and open and clean and stay at 3'.
Side note- Why ignore the HV curve that guys like Rich and Nick bust their ass to make? Sorry if any of the other members are test pilots and I left them off, I for one appreciate you doing much of the dirty work for the helicopters I fly.
Stay at 3' and just look where you are going. To teach hovering, find a better place that is nice and open and clean and stay at 3'.
Side note- Why ignore the HV curve that guys like Rich and Nick bust their ass to make? Sorry if any of the other members are test pilots and I left them off, I for one appreciate you doing much of the dirty work for the helicopters I fly.
Fantastic thread!
Rich, perhaps CJ might be female and all your arguements for penis preservation are lost on the super-spined one! I think we all know what the last thing to pass through CJ's mind will be after an engine failure in the hover!!
TC: the pop up in auto can easily be taught and performed in teetering head helicopters as any agressive push overs would result in very decayed RRPM quite apart from the danger of mast bump and rotor separation. But you have voiced the whole crux of the discussion - entry speed. Quite a safe manouevre (if a little hard to justify for the majority of flying roles) when performed with high entry speed, but akin to kissing your arse, legs, and your penis (where applicable) goodbye from low entry speeds.
Rich, perhaps CJ might be female and all your arguements for penis preservation are lost on the super-spined one! I think we all know what the last thing to pass through CJ's mind will be after an engine failure in the hover!!
TC: the pop up in auto can easily be taught and performed in teetering head helicopters as any agressive push overs would result in very decayed RRPM quite apart from the danger of mast bump and rotor separation. But you have voiced the whole crux of the discussion - entry speed. Quite a safe manouevre (if a little hard to justify for the majority of flying roles) when performed with high entry speed, but akin to kissing your arse, legs, and your penis (where applicable) goodbye from low entry speeds.
CJ,
In response to your earlier post, and without blowing my own trumpet, I consider myself to be a competent flight instructor. I had a look through my logbook and realistically estimate I have done a couple of thousand autos with students in all kinds of configurations, 90% of those power off to the ground. I don't consider myself by any means a guru, however I do feel I have a handle on them. I treat every one with respect.
You talk about doing an auto to a up sloping hill and needing a cyclic climb for the touchdown. I disagree entirely. If you are landing on anything other than a firm smooth and level surface, surely you would opt for a zero speed touchdown and not try to run it on? Better to land harder and keep it upright (for which they are designed) rather than risk rolling over and have a rotor blade come through the cabin, yes? If you are zero speed you don't need to be CLIMBING when you touchdown. If you are zero speed it makes no difference whether the ground is flat or sloping any which way when you touch down. And according to YOUR hover theory you should be able to do that from 15' without damaging the R22 anyway!
By teaching STUDENT pilots advanced and radical manouvres with little or no room for error is counter productive and potentially dangerous in my mind. You are teaching a toddler to run before it can walk. Inexperience and poor command decision making are far more likely to kill a junior pilot than mechanical failure. Risk versus gain and it seems to me you are greatly increasing risk in the training environment for very little gain, considering the statistically very rare predicament that you are trying to train them for. They are more likely going to walk away from these lessons with you with a dangerous seed planted in their minds ("jeez you can do anything in auto") AND WITHOUT the skills to pull them off. YOU might be able to do it but can they? What have you really achieved as an instructor then?
In my opinion, from the way you post, you portray yourself to be an instructor that is right in the middle of that cocky I can do anything stage (I guess after about a thousand hours of instructing). If you haven't had a really good scare yet then I strongly suspect from your attitude it is just a question of when, as you push that envelope further and further.
I also strongly suspect that you don't own the machines you fly, and your wallet isn't on the line if you bend one. If I am wrong then good luck, because in my opinion you will need it.
In response to your earlier post, and without blowing my own trumpet, I consider myself to be a competent flight instructor. I had a look through my logbook and realistically estimate I have done a couple of thousand autos with students in all kinds of configurations, 90% of those power off to the ground. I don't consider myself by any means a guru, however I do feel I have a handle on them. I treat every one with respect.
You talk about doing an auto to a up sloping hill and needing a cyclic climb for the touchdown. I disagree entirely. If you are landing on anything other than a firm smooth and level surface, surely you would opt for a zero speed touchdown and not try to run it on? Better to land harder and keep it upright (for which they are designed) rather than risk rolling over and have a rotor blade come through the cabin, yes? If you are zero speed you don't need to be CLIMBING when you touchdown. If you are zero speed it makes no difference whether the ground is flat or sloping any which way when you touch down. And according to YOUR hover theory you should be able to do that from 15' without damaging the R22 anyway!
By teaching STUDENT pilots advanced and radical manouvres with little or no room for error is counter productive and potentially dangerous in my mind. You are teaching a toddler to run before it can walk. Inexperience and poor command decision making are far more likely to kill a junior pilot than mechanical failure. Risk versus gain and it seems to me you are greatly increasing risk in the training environment for very little gain, considering the statistically very rare predicament that you are trying to train them for. They are more likely going to walk away from these lessons with you with a dangerous seed planted in their minds ("jeez you can do anything in auto") AND WITHOUT the skills to pull them off. YOU might be able to do it but can they? What have you really achieved as an instructor then?
In my opinion, from the way you post, you portray yourself to be an instructor that is right in the middle of that cocky I can do anything stage (I guess after about a thousand hours of instructing). If you haven't had a really good scare yet then I strongly suspect from your attitude it is just a question of when, as you push that envelope further and further.
I also strongly suspect that you don't own the machines you fly, and your wallet isn't on the line if you bend one. If I am wrong then good luck, because in my opinion you will need it.
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I wanna know what 22 he is flying that he can sustain a 15ft hover. Durin' these nice warm summer days I can't manage anything more than 1ft, watch those limits buddy
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For the last time anyone here who has a problem with my age will have to talk to their shrink about being pissed off that a 19 year old has achieved a lot while still very young. I'm not being egotistic but it seems that that is your problem.
To Autosync and Pprune fan, the two pilots on this professional pilots network who are acting very unprofessionally, my age has absolutely nothing to do with my skill level or my capabilities. Get over it. I will no longer respond to any more criticism from the 2 of you, until such time as you can act your age (which is probably a lot higher than mine, which is perhaps what your problem really is).
=====
Have to lend support to not hovering at 15 feet in a 22. Also, I would imagine doing hover autos from that height bends the crosstube at the back of the skid because of the fairly hard touch downs that would inevitably occur. I doubt the owner of the machine would be too happy about that.
I've nothing more to contribute on the matter of cyclic climbs and I fear this thread will descend into a slagging match so from now on I'll remain as a spectator. Blue skies lads.
To Autosync and Pprune fan, the two pilots on this professional pilots network who are acting very unprofessionally, my age has absolutely nothing to do with my skill level or my capabilities. Get over it. I will no longer respond to any more criticism from the 2 of you, until such time as you can act your age (which is probably a lot higher than mine, which is perhaps what your problem really is).
=====
Have to lend support to not hovering at 15 feet in a 22. Also, I would imagine doing hover autos from that height bends the crosstube at the back of the skid because of the fairly hard touch downs that would inevitably occur. I doubt the owner of the machine would be too happy about that.
I've nothing more to contribute on the matter of cyclic climbs and I fear this thread will descend into a slagging match so from now on I'll remain as a spectator. Blue skies lads.
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Wow-what a classic thread - the old adage it seems was just made for CJ......you know the one CJ, about no bold + old pilots?
CJ
As an experienced plank-driver but not so experienced helicopter- flyer, even I know that to hover at 15 feet as you suggest is to play russian roulette with one's future as a biped complete with dangly bits. As an experiment, why don't you try looking down from 15 feet up a ladder, then contemplate jumping off onto the hard stuff in a sitting position - actually, on second thoughts, don't even climb that ladder - from what you've said you might actually try it with the mistaken belief that it'll just sting a bit.
As a general aside, I'm constantly amazed at the number of R-22's I see being hovered and taxied at heights above about 12 feet. Could it be a developing trend due to increasing pilot numbers and lack of education and awareness? Any thoughts?
CaptainEagle
Although your age certainly has nothing to do with this thread nor in general terms anything to do with your ability, your comments that you have "achieved a lot while still very young" cannot help but raise an eyebrow in those of us straining to remain in sight of the receding shoreline of our youth. If, as you imply, your age has nothing to do with your ability, then what bearing can it possibly have on your "achievement"? I would put it to you bluntly that it has more to do with financial ability than anything else. This is not a criticism of you per se, merely a reflection of why your age will become an issue if you use it as some measure of your "achievement".
CJ
As an experienced plank-driver but not so experienced helicopter- flyer, even I know that to hover at 15 feet as you suggest is to play russian roulette with one's future as a biped complete with dangly bits. As an experiment, why don't you try looking down from 15 feet up a ladder, then contemplate jumping off onto the hard stuff in a sitting position - actually, on second thoughts, don't even climb that ladder - from what you've said you might actually try it with the mistaken belief that it'll just sting a bit.
As a general aside, I'm constantly amazed at the number of R-22's I see being hovered and taxied at heights above about 12 feet. Could it be a developing trend due to increasing pilot numbers and lack of education and awareness? Any thoughts?
CaptainEagle
Although your age certainly has nothing to do with this thread nor in general terms anything to do with your ability, your comments that you have "achieved a lot while still very young" cannot help but raise an eyebrow in those of us straining to remain in sight of the receding shoreline of our youth. If, as you imply, your age has nothing to do with your ability, then what bearing can it possibly have on your "achievement"? I would put it to you bluntly that it has more to do with financial ability than anything else. This is not a criticism of you per se, merely a reflection of why your age will become an issue if you use it as some measure of your "achievement".
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I was taught to hover 15 feet at the factory, and I am sure they know more then you do. If you lose an engine in an R-22 at 15 and do nothing, you will walk away just fine. Helicopter might not survive, but that is not the major goal in an emergency. Survival without injury is.
I have performed hovering autpos from 15 feet with no damage to the helicopter whatsoever. Why don't you all go to the factory course and ask them to show you a hovering auto from 15 feet. I guess you will be able to show them something because you guys know everything.
JCooper - You don't even know how an engine operates or the effects of air density. And you want to act like a know it all?
I am at 5,500 feet and on these nice warm days the R-22 hovers just fine. Maybe if you don't fly it over gross you might realize its true performance potential.
I have performed hovering autpos from 15 feet with no damage to the helicopter whatsoever. Why don't you all go to the factory course and ask them to show you a hovering auto from 15 feet. I guess you will be able to show them something because you guys know everything.
JCooper - You don't even know how an engine operates or the effects of air density. And you want to act like a know it all?
I am at 5,500 feet and on these nice warm days the R-22 hovers just fine. Maybe if you don't fly it over gross you might realize its true performance potential.
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I have to agree that it is possible to succesfully and harmlessly do a hover auto in the R22 from 10 feet - I've had it demonstrated to me by an instructor to show that it could be done.
Note - could be done, not _should_ be done.
CJ - fair enough, you can happily bring an R22 safely down from 15 feet. Whoop-de-doo. Hovering at 3-4 feet should be more than enough if you're teaching a student how to hover and are worried about dynamic rollover.
The old adage - "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" would apply here. I'd like to see you go back to the factory course and ask if they advocate hovering at 15 feet as a matter of course. I'd be very surprised if they said they did.
Thanks to the old fogies for their insight into the original question. Excellent stuff.
Note - could be done, not _should_ be done.
CJ - fair enough, you can happily bring an R22 safely down from 15 feet. Whoop-de-doo. Hovering at 3-4 feet should be more than enough if you're teaching a student how to hover and are worried about dynamic rollover.
The old adage - "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" would apply here. I'd like to see you go back to the factory course and ask if they advocate hovering at 15 feet as a matter of course. I'd be very surprised if they said they did.
Thanks to the old fogies for their insight into the original question. Excellent stuff.
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Lets hear it for the kid who was able to buy himself a commercial licence, who in his own words
Captain Birdseye relax, its not personal, I dont know you, will probably never meet you this board is anonymous for those including yourself who wish to stay that way.
Good thread folks, keep up the abuse and Pprunefan#1 saying it like it is as always.
(who deep down doesn't agree with him from time to time?)
achieved a lot while still very young.
Good thread folks, keep up the abuse and Pprunefan#1 saying it like it is as always.
(who deep down doesn't agree with him from time to time?)
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mmmmm interesting thread developments.....
some proverbs come to mind ...
"The pot calling the kettle black"
"a wise man may learn from his mistakes ... a truly wise man will learn from the mistakes of others" ...
"sometimes tis better to remain silent and let others think you a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt!"
some proverbs come to mind ...
"The pot calling the kettle black"
"a wise man may learn from his mistakes ... a truly wise man will learn from the mistakes of others" ...
"sometimes tis better to remain silent and let others think you a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt!"
Can we all get one thing straight here - for starters:
Dynamic rollover requires the helo to be in contact with the ground. You cannot get DR in the hover
Secondly, common sense dictates that when engaged in any form of hovering, one should be
(a) high enough so as not to risk clipping the ground inadvertently, and,
(b) low enough so as to get the little beastie back on the deck in one piece should something go wrong (EOL/hyd/TR fail etc).
The optimum height should therefore be around about 5-10 feet (depending on a/c type).
We all know that most of the time, most of us would get away with an engine failure from 10+ feet, but you can GUARANTEE airframe damage from this height if the pilot does nothing to assist with the landing.
Surely, we, as professionals, don't go around thinking "sod the aircraft, I'm OK, Jack"...do we?
As mentioned earlier, just because it's not your helo, doesn't mean to say you won't look after it.
An EOL from 5-10 feet is survivable (airframe and occupants), anything higher is almost certainly going to cost you your undercarriage and or your tail boom and or your job
Captain Eagle:
I think you sound and seem very mature from an aviator point of view for your age. BUT be very careful how you employ this tactic...You've got an exponential amount to learn yet and over confidence at this stage will come back to haunt you later..good luck with your vocation.
Dynamic rollover requires the helo to be in contact with the ground. You cannot get DR in the hover
Secondly, common sense dictates that when engaged in any form of hovering, one should be
(a) high enough so as not to risk clipping the ground inadvertently, and,
(b) low enough so as to get the little beastie back on the deck in one piece should something go wrong (EOL/hyd/TR fail etc).
The optimum height should therefore be around about 5-10 feet (depending on a/c type).
We all know that most of the time, most of us would get away with an engine failure from 10+ feet, but you can GUARANTEE airframe damage from this height if the pilot does nothing to assist with the landing.
Surely, we, as professionals, don't go around thinking "sod the aircraft, I'm OK, Jack"...do we?
As mentioned earlier, just because it's not your helo, doesn't mean to say you won't look after it.
An EOL from 5-10 feet is survivable (airframe and occupants), anything higher is almost certainly going to cost you your undercarriage and or your tail boom and or your job
Captain Eagle:
I think you sound and seem very mature from an aviator point of view for your age. BUT be very careful how you employ this tactic...You've got an exponential amount to learn yet and over confidence at this stage will come back to haunt you later..good luck with your vocation.
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Just couldnt resist replying again, sorry guys, again this has nothing to do with flying but I won't just let criticism go unanswered in a public forum.
Anyone except ex-military pilots bought their commercial unless it was given to them, maybe some did it with ease, maybe some didn't - whatever about age but financial circumstances certainly do not have anything to do with this.
I used the term "achieved a lot for my age" in response to what others have said, I did not start the slagging match here, nor did I post as a first instance.
I do not doubt that anyone could achieve their cpl at my age, or even younger given the resources, I never said that I did doubt that, you guys just presumed that's what I think.
Maximum,
I simply refer to achievement in the fact that the youngest you can apply for a CPL is 18, so I got it very quickly. That is an achievement, of course others can (and probably have) achieved the same thing, I am not denying that.
And finally, many of you seem to insinuating that I think I'm fantasitc and great and deserve praise. This isn't what I think, I never asked for praise, not from anyone. You need to relax, I came on here to discuss aviation matters not to have to sit down and write messages like this time and time again and wonder why I even bother.
And auto, don't say a comment isn't personal when it is aimed at me, maybe you don't know me, but you still made personal remarks. Maybe you should get to know me before making such remarks. If you are the model of a professional pilot then I hope to remain young and in-experienced and everything else you think I am. Your a professional, act like it.
Anyone except ex-military pilots bought their commercial unless it was given to them, maybe some did it with ease, maybe some didn't - whatever about age but financial circumstances certainly do not have anything to do with this.
I used the term "achieved a lot for my age" in response to what others have said, I did not start the slagging match here, nor did I post as a first instance.
I do not doubt that anyone could achieve their cpl at my age, or even younger given the resources, I never said that I did doubt that, you guys just presumed that's what I think.
Maximum,
I simply refer to achievement in the fact that the youngest you can apply for a CPL is 18, so I got it very quickly. That is an achievement, of course others can (and probably have) achieved the same thing, I am not denying that.
And finally, many of you seem to insinuating that I think I'm fantasitc and great and deserve praise. This isn't what I think, I never asked for praise, not from anyone. You need to relax, I came on here to discuss aviation matters not to have to sit down and write messages like this time and time again and wonder why I even bother.
And auto, don't say a comment isn't personal when it is aimed at me, maybe you don't know me, but you still made personal remarks. Maybe you should get to know me before making such remarks. If you are the model of a professional pilot then I hope to remain young and in-experienced and everything else you think I am. Your a professional, act like it.