Cyclic climb after entering autorotation
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Enough!
This is Rotorheads, not JustHelicopters.
CaptainEagle
You get the last word this time, but you might want to consider the value of experience as well as the qualification, and think about the kindly advice you've been offered.
Now let's get back to the topic - hope a good discussion hasn't been spoiled.
Heliport
This is Rotorheads, not JustHelicopters.
CaptainEagle
You get the last word this time, but you might want to consider the value of experience as well as the qualification, and think about the kindly advice you've been offered.
Now let's get back to the topic - hope a good discussion hasn't been spoiled.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 15th Aug 2003 at 01:38.
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Thanks Heliport, you are moderating well.
It was either Lu Zuckerman or Isaa Asimov who said "Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
It was either Lu Zuckerman or Isaa Asimov who said "Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
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So what's the verdict then? Teaching cyclic-climbs to students the wrong thing to do? Given that a lot of training takes place in the 22 (which is probably incapable of completeing such a maneuvre) I think (in my humble, inexperienced opinion) it should be left to the military to teach for use in combat or maybe shown in advanced training courses (perhaps the robbie safety course?).
Eagle.
PS- Thanks Heliport you are doing a great job and your advice (and that of others) is always noted and appreciated. Apologies if I have offended anyone.
Eagle.
PS- Thanks Heliport you are doing a great job and your advice (and that of others) is always noted and appreciated. Apologies if I have offended anyone.
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Hi guys,
CJ-E: First I think you are mixing up something with your factory course-15 ft-auto and so. I also got the factory course and I got it from the man who did all the test flying for the R-22. In no way he endorses or recommends a 15 ft hover for primary training! Period.
On more advanced training you might want to practise this for any possible mission, but for regular hover you want to stay between 3-5 ft (the man says...)
If you did the factory safety course you probably saw the video with the R-44 HV-diagram flights. The R-44 was at less than 50 kts, about 50ft, cut throttle, 2 sec reaction delay - he was sitting on the belly, the gear spread out horizontal! The R-44 was single occupant. Forget a no-damage, 15ft no- indicated airspeed auto to a hard surface in a R-22 - I don´t see it. I train people in at least 2000ft DA - in your place even less so.
CaptainEagle:
Recommedation - keep it boring for a long while. Until you have lots and lots of practise autos, quickstops etc.
Maybe it is because I was pretty dumb at your age, but on the other hand I just got it confirmed again:
I gave a 22 year old 150 hr CPLH a crashcourse for tunaboat ops. I thought I got through to him about showing off. For finacial reasons he would not go on a boat with me to do approaches and landings, but would go with a different pilot doing radio tests(so he safed about 4 hrs of training expenses...).
Turns out that this guy is a real hillbilly-show-idiot.
After 50+ successful hours flying my student got cookie and tried copying the hillbillies stunts like quickstopping the helicopter onto the deck of the boat - bang! there goes the TR.
He survived to get fired!
Most likely thats where his career stops, as he proofed that he is not mature enough yet...
Coyote: You are absolutely right - this specific maneuver is not for PPL´s. Not even for a regular CPL. I demonstrate (no student practise) this maneuver as a means to show where the limit is in auto flare or quickstop - Cannot pull more back cyclic than Rrpm allows (overspeed) after that you climb and end up high with nothing (rpm and/or speed). Mostly they get the message.
Nulian:
However there is at least one comercial application:
When we started to Ag-spray with a R-22 we where urged not to fly ag until factory checkout (Spray equipment manufacturer) - they where right:
In case of an engine out while spraying at 65 Kts and 3 ft of the crops you have no time nor space to flare off the speed, so immediate reaction was a fairly hard aft pull on the cyclic with collective unchanged, which would baloon the R-22 to about 10-12 ft, where one would get the collective down to maintain Rrpm. Once down to 40 kts (which happens in no time at all!) you flare it so hard that you just see sky strait out front (I learned subsequently to look out the side.........getting old, learning slows down too
) which kills the rest of the speed - tricky thing was not to hang there too long, but leveling the machine before the 10ft altitude where gone and run on level. It was exciting, luckely I never needed it, long live the Lycosaurus!!
Maybe doing film work you may get caught in extreme low level flying, but generally one will have enough to do to keep regular autorotational skills up!
Heliport:
Your line about just.helicopters LOL
There is no way this here gets so bad, ever!
3top
CJ-E: First I think you are mixing up something with your factory course-15 ft-auto and so. I also got the factory course and I got it from the man who did all the test flying for the R-22. In no way he endorses or recommends a 15 ft hover for primary training! Period.
On more advanced training you might want to practise this for any possible mission, but for regular hover you want to stay between 3-5 ft (the man says...)
If you did the factory safety course you probably saw the video with the R-44 HV-diagram flights. The R-44 was at less than 50 kts, about 50ft, cut throttle, 2 sec reaction delay - he was sitting on the belly, the gear spread out horizontal! The R-44 was single occupant. Forget a no-damage, 15ft no- indicated airspeed auto to a hard surface in a R-22 - I don´t see it. I train people in at least 2000ft DA - in your place even less so.
CaptainEagle:
Recommedation - keep it boring for a long while. Until you have lots and lots of practise autos, quickstops etc.
Maybe it is because I was pretty dumb at your age, but on the other hand I just got it confirmed again:
I gave a 22 year old 150 hr CPLH a crashcourse for tunaboat ops. I thought I got through to him about showing off. For finacial reasons he would not go on a boat with me to do approaches and landings, but would go with a different pilot doing radio tests(so he safed about 4 hrs of training expenses...).
Turns out that this guy is a real hillbilly-show-idiot.
After 50+ successful hours flying my student got cookie and tried copying the hillbillies stunts like quickstopping the helicopter onto the deck of the boat - bang! there goes the TR.
He survived to get fired!
Most likely thats where his career stops, as he proofed that he is not mature enough yet...
Coyote: You are absolutely right - this specific maneuver is not for PPL´s. Not even for a regular CPL. I demonstrate (no student practise) this maneuver as a means to show where the limit is in auto flare or quickstop - Cannot pull more back cyclic than Rrpm allows (overspeed) after that you climb and end up high with nothing (rpm and/or speed). Mostly they get the message.
Nulian:
However there is at least one comercial application:
When we started to Ag-spray with a R-22 we where urged not to fly ag until factory checkout (Spray equipment manufacturer) - they where right:
In case of an engine out while spraying at 65 Kts and 3 ft of the crops you have no time nor space to flare off the speed, so immediate reaction was a fairly hard aft pull on the cyclic with collective unchanged, which would baloon the R-22 to about 10-12 ft, where one would get the collective down to maintain Rrpm. Once down to 40 kts (which happens in no time at all!) you flare it so hard that you just see sky strait out front (I learned subsequently to look out the side.........getting old, learning slows down too
) which kills the rest of the speed - tricky thing was not to hang there too long, but leveling the machine before the 10ft altitude where gone and run on level. It was exciting, luckely I never needed it, long live the Lycosaurus!!Maybe doing film work you may get caught in extreme low level flying, but generally one will have enough to do to keep regular autorotational skills up!
Heliport:
Your line about just.helicopters LOL
There is no way this here gets so bad, ever!
3top
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3top,
Thanks for the advice and it's taken on-board, your absolutely right about keeping it boring even though even normal flying is never going to be boring!
Blue skies,
Eagle.
Thanks for the advice and it's taken on-board, your absolutely right about keeping it boring even though even normal flying is never going to be boring!
Blue skies,
Eagle.
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Now help me please - where does the term "hover auto" come from? 15' Hover Auto? What autorotation? Doesn't happen as far as I know. When does the helicopter actually autorotate?
As I have said once before on this site - the use of this term incorrectly will not get you passed a flight check in some countries.
As I have said once before on this site - the use of this term incorrectly will not get you passed a flight check in some countries.
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CaptainEagle, now you're really showing your inexperience. Normal flying is often boring - a common truism is that flying is hours of boredom interspersed with seconds of stark terror. The smart ones, the ones who become old pilots, don't try to liven things up, they'll eventually become lively enough naturally. See the thread on sleeping if you doubt me. Routine flights are exciting only to the very new pilots, and the novelty will wear off. Keep it as boring as possible for as long as possible, & you'll likely survive. Extra stimulation can be fatal, to the career if not to the corpus
even though even normal flying is never going to be boring!
