This pushes my button
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Why do civilians think that Military pilots lead a life of luxury and decadence? Being an ex-Army pilot I can catagorically state that this conception is wrong. You were a soldier first and a pilot second.
The flight training is extremely comprehensive and probably the best in the world (we've been here before, me-thinks). Unlike our civilian counterparts we have other duties to perform over and above our flying/ground training.
These duties usually occur on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday so as not to interfere with the training schedule, so our family lives were affected as well.
Employers selected ex-military pilots because of the training and diverse experience of most ex-mil jocks. The ex-military pilot has the flexibility to perform under extremes of conditions, and the self discipline is very obvious in the way most ex-military pilots conduct themselves.
Most ex-military pilots are socially adept, having been a member of the SNCO's or Officers Mess (or both).
Steve, please dont tar us all with the same brush. I worked bloody hard during my 21 1/2 years serving my country in some pretty inhospitable places in the world and I left the service to take a flying job in Canada that I was offered because of my military flying experience.
I will state that this is not a whine, its just saying it like it is. I am only stating my experience of life in the Army, not the RAF, Navy or Royal Marines.
The flight training is extremely comprehensive and probably the best in the world (we've been here before, me-thinks). Unlike our civilian counterparts we have other duties to perform over and above our flying/ground training.
These duties usually occur on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday so as not to interfere with the training schedule, so our family lives were affected as well.
Employers selected ex-military pilots because of the training and diverse experience of most ex-mil jocks. The ex-military pilot has the flexibility to perform under extremes of conditions, and the self discipline is very obvious in the way most ex-military pilots conduct themselves.
Most ex-military pilots are socially adept, having been a member of the SNCO's or Officers Mess (or both).
Steve, please dont tar us all with the same brush. I worked bloody hard during my 21 1/2 years serving my country in some pretty inhospitable places in the world and I left the service to take a flying job in Canada that I was offered because of my military flying experience.
I will state that this is not a whine, its just saying it like it is. I am only stating my experience of life in the Army, not the RAF, Navy or Royal Marines.
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With regard as to why s/he's coming out with only 600 hours... I think you'll probably find that this person is an Officer on a short service Commission or the like, and is now being required to go on to a staff (read desk) job. I'd go further and hazard a guess that 600 rotary hours represents about 4-500 hrs on a front line type. With the flying rate that most Officers are getting at the moment, this may represent as many as 5-6 years in a flying appointment. Officers in the Army (except those in NI) don't get very many hours each year (broad generalisation), and certainly not as many as professional civvie pilots.
I think that some of you are a little too quick to point accusing fingers. I figure that this person has probably done his/her time in the Service and the Service is now not taking him/her on for further (flying) service. If that person then wants to leave and look for work elsewhere then good luck to them! Asking for advice never hurt anyone, and the worse that can happen is that someone will say no! Chill out.
Just my 2p worth...
I think that some of you are a little too quick to point accusing fingers. I figure that this person has probably done his/her time in the Service and the Service is now not taking him/her on for further (flying) service. If that person then wants to leave and look for work elsewhere then good luck to them! Asking for advice never hurt anyone, and the worse that can happen is that someone will say no! Chill out.
Just my 2p worth...
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Steve76,
I think the way you feel is normal, in a perfect world maybe employers would look at these moral issues when hiring someone, maybe value someones effort and determination and not just flight experience.
But now you tell me, if you were the owner of a 2 ship company and you knew you couldn't afford any mistakes, who would you hire? 1500hr. R22 pilot with nothing more than monotonous instruction experience, or a 600 hr. exmilitary guy who has flown into ships, is highly trained, has gone thru a selection process, knows his way around a turbine, has flown with many different more experienced pilots, etc. Honestly, I know who my choice would be in regards to experience.
(I have never been military)
There is one difficult thing about being a line pilot, and that is finding replacements is always easy, not like replacing a good lawyer of doctor, You don't need superpowers, or an infinite amount of experience to become a pilot.
If required companies/organizations can make pilots from scratch quickly, it happens all the time, here's a story.
We have a company called Heliservicio Campeche which is a GOM operator, (AirLog Subsidiary has even the same colors pic included) every couple of years they have a need for new pilots, old ones get too bitchy and demanding so it is easier to make new ones.
They gather all the necessary permits, and round up some local very young private pilots and put them into the 212/412 as paid copilots, say 2 years later depending on company needs, off they go to FlightSafety sim training and come back as B212/412 PIC's with more than 1500 offshore hours and the good fortune of having flown with experienced pilots.
Now they are a few levels below of a pilot who has worked many years, but nobody complains because that is how the system works, I can't complain because I was one of those copilots once, I got my break, I have to let others get THEIR break. Even if others had to go thru hell to get to their flying position.
I am VERY aware that I choose a JOB in which when I get old, bitchy, and want to make as much money as someone who went to college, I will probably be replaced by a kid who had the money and determination to get himself the hours, OR had the stomach & need, to endure military living for some of the best years of his life (high price to pay for ANYTHING) and get himself trained.
I just feel I am being honest with myself about my job.
I think the way you feel is normal, in a perfect world maybe employers would look at these moral issues when hiring someone, maybe value someones effort and determination and not just flight experience.
But now you tell me, if you were the owner of a 2 ship company and you knew you couldn't afford any mistakes, who would you hire? 1500hr. R22 pilot with nothing more than monotonous instruction experience, or a 600 hr. exmilitary guy who has flown into ships, is highly trained, has gone thru a selection process, knows his way around a turbine, has flown with many different more experienced pilots, etc. Honestly, I know who my choice would be in regards to experience.
(I have never been military)
There is one difficult thing about being a line pilot, and that is finding replacements is always easy, not like replacing a good lawyer of doctor, You don't need superpowers, or an infinite amount of experience to become a pilot.
If required companies/organizations can make pilots from scratch quickly, it happens all the time, here's a story.
We have a company called Heliservicio Campeche which is a GOM operator, (AirLog Subsidiary has even the same colors pic included) every couple of years they have a need for new pilots, old ones get too bitchy and demanding so it is easier to make new ones.
They gather all the necessary permits, and round up some local very young private pilots and put them into the 212/412 as paid copilots, say 2 years later depending on company needs, off they go to FlightSafety sim training and come back as B212/412 PIC's with more than 1500 offshore hours and the good fortune of having flown with experienced pilots.
Now they are a few levels below of a pilot who has worked many years, but nobody complains because that is how the system works, I can't complain because I was one of those copilots once, I got my break, I have to let others get THEIR break. Even if others had to go thru hell to get to their flying position.
I am VERY aware that I choose a JOB in which when I get old, bitchy, and want to make as much money as someone who went to college, I will probably be replaced by a kid who had the money and determination to get himself the hours, OR had the stomach & need, to endure military living for some of the best years of his life (high price to pay for ANYTHING) and get himself trained.
I just feel I am being honest with myself about my job.
Thread Starter
Just to keep the pot bubbling 
Here's a healthy perspective from one of Canada's Mil drivers...
"Live" from another forum.
"I'm military guy, drove 212s, Labs and now Sea Kings. Love flying off ships, it's way way cool stuff.
I dream of finishing military life and finding work driving anything small enough to fly alone. Willing to earm my keep out there and learn the trade, customer relations and all that good stuff you need to know. I love flying the big iron, got tons of time on the dials day and night but it would be so nice to just fly off in some light machine and just fly by yourself without a committee of three, four and sometimes as many as six aircrew.
I appreciate my "on the dials" time is pretty high but I have no problem getting out there and "earning my wings" in the bush. What we do in the military is tons different to what most civvy drivers do and I am constantly humbled when I look at the skills of pilots flying smaller machines but doing that longlining thing or aerial spraying or mountain flying.
My skill set includes flying at 15 feet in formation with 20 other 212s, shooting an approach just by eye into the hills north of Val D'Or at night to rescue someone, hoisting guys out of a canoe during a storm on the great lakes and landing a Sea King on the pitching deck of a frigate in the North Atlantic, great stuff and I've loved it but it does not make me anywhere near qualified to do what you guys do so well and make look so easy.
If CHC Int'l finds my background interesting then that would be terrific but like I said I've never assumed I am qualified nor deserve to "jump ahead" of anyone else in line for bigger machines just because I flew in the Air Force.
Bottom line is I just love flying helicopters and I'll be happy if I get a 25 year old Jet Ranger to move big and smelly prospectors around or a chance at a bigger machine. Whatever, so long as my bum is off the ground, I'm ready to learn tons of new stuff."
Here's a healthy perspective from one of Canada's Mil drivers...
"Live" from another forum.
"I'm military guy, drove 212s, Labs and now Sea Kings. Love flying off ships, it's way way cool stuff.
I dream of finishing military life and finding work driving anything small enough to fly alone. Willing to earm my keep out there and learn the trade, customer relations and all that good stuff you need to know. I love flying the big iron, got tons of time on the dials day and night but it would be so nice to just fly off in some light machine and just fly by yourself without a committee of three, four and sometimes as many as six aircrew.
I appreciate my "on the dials" time is pretty high but I have no problem getting out there and "earning my wings" in the bush. What we do in the military is tons different to what most civvy drivers do and I am constantly humbled when I look at the skills of pilots flying smaller machines but doing that longlining thing or aerial spraying or mountain flying.
My skill set includes flying at 15 feet in formation with 20 other 212s, shooting an approach just by eye into the hills north of Val D'Or at night to rescue someone, hoisting guys out of a canoe during a storm on the great lakes and landing a Sea King on the pitching deck of a frigate in the North Atlantic, great stuff and I've loved it but it does not make me anywhere near qualified to do what you guys do so well and make look so easy.
If CHC Int'l finds my background interesting then that would be terrific but like I said I've never assumed I am qualified nor deserve to "jump ahead" of anyone else in line for bigger machines just because I flew in the Air Force.
Bottom line is I just love flying helicopters and I'll be happy if I get a 25 year old Jet Ranger to move big and smelly prospectors around or a chance at a bigger machine. Whatever, so long as my bum is off the ground, I'm ready to learn tons of new stuff."
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Steve76,
I don't know, maybe in Canada SOME military guys fly like you describe above.
The military guys in this part of the world fly by themselves most of the time, his copilot is the mechanic, they fly drug erradication, costline patrols, relief missions, interception, some IFR, TO/LDG above 10,000FTAMSL, reconissance, etc. in small ships, in mountains or jungles, MD500, 900, Bo105, BK117, 206, 212, 412.
This guy describes "flying a small ship doing long line work" like some sort of occult science that is hard to learn, he's just eager to fly by himself and do what he want's, he want's to buzz his home, and go say hello to the kids probably, he probably doesn't realize that with his background he's already learned the hard part.
Quote:
To me, flying is 25% manipulating the controls and 75% good judgment, decision making, and presenting oneself in a professional manner (i.e. appearance and attitude)
There are a lot of people out there with a license to fly but lack everything else, at least the military guys have good education and excellent training.
He's already half way there.
I don't know, maybe in Canada SOME military guys fly like you describe above.
The military guys in this part of the world fly by themselves most of the time, his copilot is the mechanic, they fly drug erradication, costline patrols, relief missions, interception, some IFR, TO/LDG above 10,000FTAMSL, reconissance, etc. in small ships, in mountains or jungles, MD500, 900, Bo105, BK117, 206, 212, 412.
This guy describes "flying a small ship doing long line work" like some sort of occult science that is hard to learn, he's just eager to fly by himself and do what he want's, he want's to buzz his home, and go say hello to the kids probably, he probably doesn't realize that with his background he's already learned the hard part.
Quote:
To me, flying is 25% manipulating the controls and 75% good judgment, decision making, and presenting oneself in a professional manner (i.e. appearance and attitude)
There are a lot of people out there with a license to fly but lack everything else, at least the military guys have good education and excellent training.
He's already half way there.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 23rd Apr 2003 at 01:40.
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our varied backgrounds
In any place of employment, ours included, anyone with the minimum requirements for a job is entitled to apply for it.
It is the employers perogative to decide if the individual will fit in to the job environment.
I don't think we as a group can decide who is worthy and who is not, based on their background= discrimination in labour terms.
Steve76, I respect your opinion and you have valid criticisms, but at the end of the day it's the individuals skill and professionalism that will decide if he keeps his job or gets punted out.
I've worked with ex-mil, ex bush, ex flight instructors, ex- whatever pilots. Those varied backgrounds did not dictate any specific level of professionalism.
My two cents worth!
D.K
It is the employers perogative to decide if the individual will fit in to the job environment.
I don't think we as a group can decide who is worthy and who is not, based on their background= discrimination in labour terms.
Steve76, I respect your opinion and you have valid criticisms, but at the end of the day it's the individuals skill and professionalism that will decide if he keeps his job or gets punted out.
I've worked with ex-mil, ex bush, ex flight instructors, ex- whatever pilots. Those varied backgrounds did not dictate any specific level of professionalism.
My two cents worth!
D.K
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As the fella who started a similar thread a few weeks ago I find it amusing to see this topic being bandied around again. My point then was about ATTITUDE. I have done more than my fair share of mundane flying with guys from ALL backgrounds whose resumes were often incredibly impressive. As always the good ones were good, and the gash ones were gash and made all the silly mistakes. It didnt seem to matter where they came from.
I hope this guy manages ok but if he thinks that there will be balloons witing for him then he is sadly mistaken. His problem will be the insurance companies who dont give a toss about your background if your numbers dont crunch.
I must say I find it interesting to find such unity among the ex mils... believe me no matter where you got your wings you have been at the butt of derision from other ex mil guys... In my years in crew rooms no one has escaped...
And finally to the guy who slagged of us R22 instructors.. I challenge you to teach touchdown autos all day for a year with un selected, uneducated tossers where everytime you closed the throttle your job, your company and your parents mortgage was on the line. I didnt knock your experience please dont knock mine.
I hope this guy manages ok but if he thinks that there will be balloons witing for him then he is sadly mistaken. His problem will be the insurance companies who dont give a toss about your background if your numbers dont crunch.
I must say I find it interesting to find such unity among the ex mils... believe me no matter where you got your wings you have been at the butt of derision from other ex mil guys... In my years in crew rooms no one has escaped...
And finally to the guy who slagged of us R22 instructors.. I challenge you to teach touchdown autos all day for a year with un selected, uneducated tossers where everytime you closed the throttle your job, your company and your parents mortgage was on the line. I didnt knock your experience please dont knock mine.
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Bunnion, I am totally shocked to read that you think that your students are "unselected, uneducated tossers". I sincerely hope that your students dont know that you post here or that they dont know your user name.
Have a little respect for those people who pay your salary..please.
Have a little respect for those people who pay your salary..please.
Imagine you bash out your 500hrs moving cows, fat arses in circles, chasing tuna, spotting traffic, flying old pieces of **** into remote areas
I suspect this might be the norm on OZ and NZ, but it's not exactly challenging flying is it? He probably learned everything you learned (in that 500hrs), in his first 100hrs.
Don't knock him for his quals, his attitude leaves a lot to be desired (ex Army Captain!), but if you don't ask, you don't get....
It's the same for us all, each helo driver eventually finds their professional level, be it through determination or expertise. If you are an R22 instructor year after year after year, then either you are very happy with your lot, or pretty lazy and can't be bothered to look for anything else. It's the way one looks at it, at the end of the day. He obviously wants to keep striving for some other 'level'.
The main thing (his naivety aside) is that his training is guaranteed to the highest possible standard, and can be checked...how many can say that with a civilian CV???
Question remains: will he get the job
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Oh Tom....your asking for a licken now!!
Having done neither the cow thing or been fishing..................but there are skills there that you may [I would assume not, unless you have been there] not have, therefore your observation is not a fair one..........
With a lump of larger time behind me I once accepted a ride in a little R22 as my mate chased cows.............well not only was I crook in less than 30 mins, it was also obvious that this guy was far more part of his machine than I was in a fully coupled machine....he handled that aircraft with precision, nearly an artform, with the needles staying exactly in the green as he looked outside....it was an impressive picture......but despite the flies, dust and sleeping on the ground, I returned to the hotel.
Also I have been in those older machines in those tight little spots between the rocks and trees....there is also a skill in that area that you soon loose if you stay away to long......I would be hesitant to go back there now.
So Mate...please be careful with generalisations, as we as an industry have lots of nooks and crannies, and each one has a goctha hidden deep inside, and particularly so for anyone that thinks that those seemingly little bush disciplines are easy.
With a lump of larger time behind me I once accepted a ride in a little R22 as my mate chased cows.............well not only was I crook in less than 30 mins, it was also obvious that this guy was far more part of his machine than I was in a fully coupled machine....he handled that aircraft with precision, nearly an artform, with the needles staying exactly in the green as he looked outside....it was an impressive picture......but despite the flies, dust and sleeping on the ground, I returned to the hotel.
Also I have been in those older machines in those tight little spots between the rocks and trees....there is also a skill in that area that you soon loose if you stay away to long......I would be hesitant to go back there now.
So Mate...please be careful with generalisations, as we as an industry have lots of nooks and crannies, and each one has a goctha hidden deep inside, and particularly so for anyone that thinks that those seemingly little bush disciplines are easy.
Last edited by Red Wine; 24th Apr 2003 at 23:13.
So Bunion, are you saying that you were an unselected uneducated tosser or were you just trying to hype the difficulty and hardship of being an R22 instructor.
The whole point of instructor training is to prepare you for the student who does the wrong thing at the wrong time so that you can anticipate and correct it.
It's not rocket science since most people learing to fly helicopters make the same mistakes in the same situations over and over again.
Doing EOLs with a student just means you never stop following through!
As for easy military training and having it handed on a plate Steve 76 I really think you should go and have a look at what the mil training system looks like before you criticise. You paid for your hours, I was paid for them but I bloody well earned them all the same - if all I had had to do was sleep in a mates car and chase cattle around I would have been quite happy!
The whole point of instructor training is to prepare you for the student who does the wrong thing at the wrong time so that you can anticipate and correct it.
It's not rocket science since most people learing to fly helicopters make the same mistakes in the same situations over and over again.
Doing EOLs with a student just means you never stop following through!
As for easy military training and having it handed on a plate Steve 76 I really think you should go and have a look at what the mil training system looks like before you criticise. You paid for your hours, I was paid for them but I bloody well earned them all the same - if all I had had to do was sleep in a mates car and chase cattle around I would have been quite happy!
Paid for training
I would have loved to have my training paid for, and that is why I play the lottery every week (I never seem to win however)
Wether miliatry trained or Civvy trained does not matter, a pilot is a pilot is a pilot! Some have more experience than others. The only thing I have to point at, is that the military guys seem to get all the heavy machinery with minimal experience, while us civvies must start low and slow, and have thousands of hours before we get the chance to go with the heavy machinery. That the bloke this thread is about tries to get someone to help him finance his training is cool, I doubt anyone will, as there are tons of civvy pilots out there with more than 600 hours and all the requirements they need. He should perhaps get a reality check, and maybe go to the bank, since I believe that would help his chances more!
I would have loved to have my training paid for, and that is why I play the lottery every week (I never seem to win however)
Wether miliatry trained or Civvy trained does not matter, a pilot is a pilot is a pilot! Some have more experience than others. The only thing I have to point at, is that the military guys seem to get all the heavy machinery with minimal experience, while us civvies must start low and slow, and have thousands of hours before we get the chance to go with the heavy machinery. That the bloke this thread is about tries to get someone to help him finance his training is cool, I doubt anyone will, as there are tons of civvy pilots out there with more than 600 hours and all the requirements they need. He should perhaps get a reality check, and maybe go to the bank, since I believe that would help his chances more!
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You can't blame a guy for trying ; in fact I would like all the ppruners to send me $10.00 to help my retirement fund and therefore ween myself from this idiotic industry.
On a serious note the chap who posted the offensive thread probably thought nothing of it and did it with no intention of malice.
On a serious note the chap who posted the offensive thread probably thought nothing of it and did it with no intention of malice.
