Over-emphasis on emergencies?
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3 engine failures, two hydraulic failures, several chip lights (Allison), One engine fire and one where the front wheel fell off. ground resonance twice and a number of student inputs which required immediate action. I'm ex AAC and stand by those who say practice, practice and more practice. Why, well there are no experts in this business and to SOS we need to react promptly.
As already mentioned, a single engine failure on a twin requires firstly to fly/control the Tq/temps then at leisure the duff engine systems can be shut down. Fire is the only cause for panic in this instance. Maybe panic is the wrong choice here but you understand my meaning. The OEI operations certainly require much practice at different weights/conditions and circumstances. Those who keep up with the practice have the sequence of events clearly in their mind and handle the emergency in a logical fashion and are confident in themselves. An unpracticed person has a muddled brain.
As already mentioned, a single engine failure on a twin requires firstly to fly/control the Tq/temps then at leisure the duff engine systems can be shut down. Fire is the only cause for panic in this instance. Maybe panic is the wrong choice here but you understand my meaning. The OEI operations certainly require much practice at different weights/conditions and circumstances. Those who keep up with the practice have the sequence of events clearly in their mind and handle the emergency in a logical fashion and are confident in themselves. An unpracticed person has a muddled brain.
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There is a reason to practice emergency procedures, but we need to have the right reasons and the right practice.
I personally like the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate philosophy, and would also like to see more low cost simulators so we can get realistic practice of those emergencies that need practice. Touchdown autos at night is practice bleeding, but it needs some level of proficiency - the problem is how to safely develop that proficiency.
A significant number of emergencies that happen are evidently not in the flight manuals, and also a lot of the emergencies in the FM haven't ever happened, according to one US Army report years ago.
Let's keep talking about this - great subject.
I personally like the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate philosophy, and would also like to see more low cost simulators so we can get realistic practice of those emergencies that need practice. Touchdown autos at night is practice bleeding, but it needs some level of proficiency - the problem is how to safely develop that proficiency.
A significant number of emergencies that happen are evidently not in the flight manuals, and also a lot of the emergencies in the FM haven't ever happened, according to one US Army report years ago.
Let's keep talking about this - great subject.
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Practise makes, second nature. Automatic responce with hands flashing around the cockpit finding the correct switches, levers and giving you that little bit of spare capacity. Yes they happen i know, as do those of us that flew the early LYNX mk1.
As instructors we often spend to much time sitting in the hover chopping throttles scaring both student and instructor and putting the aircraft at risk of heavy landings and roll over. There is a risk in flying these machines but more of a risk flying with people with big egos.
Personally the list goes from countless single engine arrivals in Lynx, through engine shut down at 300ft in a gazelle, Hyd failures in 206 Hot battery in a 355 with a thermal runaway, engine failure in a robbie at 800ft, fuel starvation in a Bell47 due to the rubber inner of the fuel tank de bonding, piston through the side of the block in a 300 and a drive belt failure to the tailrotor on a Rotorway in the hover and the list goes on.
Never get complacient, one day it will bite and hurt not only your pride, your pocket, but your families.
Now where is that off switch.
As instructors we often spend to much time sitting in the hover chopping throttles scaring both student and instructor and putting the aircraft at risk of heavy landings and roll over. There is a risk in flying these machines but more of a risk flying with people with big egos.
Personally the list goes from countless single engine arrivals in Lynx, through engine shut down at 300ft in a gazelle, Hyd failures in 206 Hot battery in a 355 with a thermal runaway, engine failure in a robbie at 800ft, fuel starvation in a Bell47 due to the rubber inner of the fuel tank de bonding, piston through the side of the block in a 300 and a drive belt failure to the tailrotor on a Rotorway in the hover and the list goes on.
Never get complacient, one day it will bite and hurt not only your pride, your pocket, but your families.
Now where is that off switch.
Scalextric for Men
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So what about simulators then
We are all aware that the major plank airlines, use simulators that leap on their hydraulic legs.
How effective are the rotary simulators, do they create the buzz of reality.
Has there been audit and costing.
Is there a case for lots of simulator training, before fuel burning and rotors turning in a real helicopter.
Is there money to be made and safety to be created, by the airframe manafacturers getting to the tuition market.
I'll stop there let you think drink and answer. THEN I'LL BE BACK!
oy Shawn, send me the ISBN of yer new book.
And a message to Pprune control. lets have Smilie with a beard.
How effective are the rotary simulators, do they create the buzz of reality.
Has there been audit and costing.
Is there a case for lots of simulator training, before fuel burning and rotors turning in a real helicopter.
Is there money to be made and safety to be created, by the airframe manafacturers getting to the tuition market.
I'll stop there let you think drink and answer. THEN I'LL BE BACK!
oy Shawn, send me the ISBN of yer new book.
And a message to Pprune control. lets have Smilie with a beard.
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Greenarrow:
'Personally the list goes from countless single engine arrivals in Lynx, through engine shut down at 300ft in a gazelle, Hyd failures in 206 Hot battery in a 355 with a thermal runaway, engine failure in a robbie at 800ft, fuel starvation in a Bell47 due to the rubber inner of the fuel tank de bonding, piston through the side of the block in a 300 and a drive belt failure to the tailrotor on a Rotorway in the hover and the list goes on.'
Remind me never to fly with you, Jonah. But the engine failure in the Robbie at 800 feet sounds like special fun. Can you tell us more?
'Personally the list goes from countless single engine arrivals in Lynx, through engine shut down at 300ft in a gazelle, Hyd failures in 206 Hot battery in a 355 with a thermal runaway, engine failure in a robbie at 800ft, fuel starvation in a Bell47 due to the rubber inner of the fuel tank de bonding, piston through the side of the block in a 300 and a drive belt failure to the tailrotor on a Rotorway in the hover and the list goes on.'
Remind me never to fly with you, Jonah. But the engine failure in the Robbie at 800 feet sounds like special fun. Can you tell us more?
Capn Notarious, I swear by sims. You can get as hairy as you want, practice all the stuff you practice in the real deal, plus a few others. All the gain and then some, none of the risk. Guys have screamed in sims they get so caught up in it. Ever try a complete loss of tail rotor? Yea, they cost a fortune, but whats the cost of a few bent birds?
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An interesting topic. Its surprising when you look at the number of real emergencies posted here. More than I thought !!
I recently had an engine failure in a 47 whilst returning from a job. 3 pob 60kt and 500 agl. The survival instinct certainly kicks in. In the few seconds it took to get to the ground you seem to recall a hell of a lot of your training.
I did however notice a progression of priorities that had never really come up in training or check rides
1. First saving my ar#e, then
2. Trying to make it a walk away, then finally
3. trying to save the machine.
I'm not sure that this is the decision making process taught but I would certainly use it again.
I recently had an engine failure in a 47 whilst returning from a job. 3 pob 60kt and 500 agl. The survival instinct certainly kicks in. In the few seconds it took to get to the ground you seem to recall a hell of a lot of your training.
I did however notice a progression of priorities that had never really come up in training or check rides
1. First saving my ar#e, then
2. Trying to make it a walk away, then finally
3. trying to save the machine.
I'm not sure that this is the decision making process taught but I would certainly use it again.
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Overpitched,
Jimmy Viner, the first Sikorsky Chief Pilot, and a legend to early helo drivers, would agree with your assessment! A few years back, I heard him tell the latest crop of Sikorsky Test pilots this story (in his thick Russian accent):
"I vas performing airspeed bomb flight in R-4. Ve will fly vith this device swinging below the helicopter by a long cable. I must take off vertically and not drag it on de ground. It vas hot that day, and the machine had almost no hover OGE. I vas working collectif, RPM vas drooping, pedal vas on the stops. And the engineer vas leaning out his door shouting somting about de bomb hitting de fence. He vas vorried about his vondeful instrument! I am struggling to keep from falling, he is shouting "De bomb, Jimmy, de bomb!" and I can't hear myself tink!
Ven I get in a nice climb, and I know that I will live at least a few more minutes, I turn to him and I gif him lecture -
"Younga Man, Let me tell you my priorities! First, F**k de bomb! OK, got that? Second, F**K de helicopter! Ok, got that? Last, F**K you! Got that?"
I haf no more problems with THAT engineer!"
Jimmy Viner, the first Sikorsky Chief Pilot, and a legend to early helo drivers, would agree with your assessment! A few years back, I heard him tell the latest crop of Sikorsky Test pilots this story (in his thick Russian accent):
"I vas performing airspeed bomb flight in R-4. Ve will fly vith this device swinging below the helicopter by a long cable. I must take off vertically and not drag it on de ground. It vas hot that day, and the machine had almost no hover OGE. I vas working collectif, RPM vas drooping, pedal vas on the stops. And the engineer vas leaning out his door shouting somting about de bomb hitting de fence. He vas vorried about his vondeful instrument! I am struggling to keep from falling, he is shouting "De bomb, Jimmy, de bomb!" and I can't hear myself tink!
Ven I get in a nice climb, and I know that I will live at least a few more minutes, I turn to him and I gif him lecture -
"Younga Man, Let me tell you my priorities! First, F**k de bomb! OK, got that? Second, F**K de helicopter! Ok, got that? Last, F**K you! Got that?"
I haf no more problems with THAT engineer!"
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KENNYR you wrote
having said that, military flying is vaslty different from civilian flying especialy in regard to operations close to terra firma, over trees etc...
I agree, we civilian pilot's are the ones down in the trees, spend 5 hrs a day on lifting op's and 4.7 hrs in the dead man's curve. that's the job.
One engine shut down in a 355 and training saved the day.
having said that, military flying is vaslty different from civilian flying especialy in regard to operations close to terra firma, over trees etc...
I agree, we civilian pilot's are the ones down in the trees, spend 5 hrs a day on lifting op's and 4.7 hrs in the dead man's curve. that's the job.
One engine shut down in a 355 and training saved the day.
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FU 24 950, my post was in no way meant to be derogatory to civilian pilots or the job that they do. I was just trying to point out the difference between MOST civilian operations and Military operations. After all, we all have been/are professionals.
In the cruise, day VMC, at a suitable height, just about every emergency is benign and can be dealt with in the relaxed manner suggested by some posters. But at low level, night, in the hover over the sea and many other health risking conditions you do not have the luxury of calmly assessing and diagnosing the problem - you must be trained to react (not blindly but quickly and correctly).
All the hours spent diagnosing runaway ups/downs/unstable governing during training (either in the sim or the aircraft) are then focussed into a motor programme that will hopefully save your life.
The same goes for engine failures on singles - easy enough at 1000' on a nice day but at 200' on finals to a rooftop site?
Hyd failures in a squirrel - relative piece of ease over flat ground but in a confined area?
I understand the attitude 'it hasn't happened to me so why did I bother to train for it' because accidents always happen to other people- right?
Some helo systems have their own little gotchas - Lynx engine oil pressure for instance; spend more than a couple of seconds looking at the pressure gauge that has just dropped into the amber and you will have a catastrophic seizure of the reduction gearbox to deal with.
Know your aircraft systems and train as hard as you can to deal with emergencies, think through worst case scenarios and how you might deal with them. Try to get feedback from other operators of your helo type about failures they have had which might be waiting round the corner for you!
Alternatively hope it doesn't happen to you and hide your emergency checklist at the bottom of your nav bag - just don't pretend to be a professional aviator!
If a low cost sim was available for the light single market it would probably save a lot of lives and bent aircraft but simulators only come into their own when the relavent aircraft is expensive to operate or has many complex systems (clearly not the R22 then).
The only thing to beware of with a simulator is the 'it happens in the sim so it must happen that way in the real aircraft' mentality - a simulator can only react in the way it has been programmed and if the real data concerning rates of pitch roll and yaw has not been gathered from the real aircraft during the real emergency (TR failures for example) the the sims performance is only a 'best guess'.
All the hours spent diagnosing runaway ups/downs/unstable governing during training (either in the sim or the aircraft) are then focussed into a motor programme that will hopefully save your life.
The same goes for engine failures on singles - easy enough at 1000' on a nice day but at 200' on finals to a rooftop site?
Hyd failures in a squirrel - relative piece of ease over flat ground but in a confined area?
I understand the attitude 'it hasn't happened to me so why did I bother to train for it' because accidents always happen to other people- right?
Some helo systems have their own little gotchas - Lynx engine oil pressure for instance; spend more than a couple of seconds looking at the pressure gauge that has just dropped into the amber and you will have a catastrophic seizure of the reduction gearbox to deal with.
Know your aircraft systems and train as hard as you can to deal with emergencies, think through worst case scenarios and how you might deal with them. Try to get feedback from other operators of your helo type about failures they have had which might be waiting round the corner for you!
Alternatively hope it doesn't happen to you and hide your emergency checklist at the bottom of your nav bag - just don't pretend to be a professional aviator!
If a low cost sim was available for the light single market it would probably save a lot of lives and bent aircraft but simulators only come into their own when the relavent aircraft is expensive to operate or has many complex systems (clearly not the R22 then).
The only thing to beware of with a simulator is the 'it happens in the sim so it must happen that way in the real aircraft' mentality - a simulator can only react in the way it has been programmed and if the real data concerning rates of pitch roll and yaw has not been gathered from the real aircraft during the real emergency (TR failures for example) the the sims performance is only a 'best guess'.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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So, there you are in your nice Medium/Heavy Twin.....La dee F@cking Da...., then Boom!!!! You need to Autorotate NOW!!!!!!!
I have seen so many times in my tenure as a Training Captain, that most 'TWIN' Pilots, have forgoten how to do an auto. This is an alarming fact.
To suggest that emergencies be practiced less often just blows me away!
Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it won't tomorrow. Ask someone like Jack Jaworski (S61) or Sylvain Seguin (H500D)
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
I have seen so many times in my tenure as a Training Captain, that most 'TWIN' Pilots, have forgoten how to do an auto. This is an alarming fact.
To suggest that emergencies be practiced less often just blows me away!
Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it won't tomorrow. Ask someone like Jack Jaworski (S61) or Sylvain Seguin (H500D)
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
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offshoreigor
Yes I completely agree.....
Multi-crew and multi-engined crews tend to forget or at least not practice the basics as much as in the less sophisticated aircraft.
As standard procedure, I finish off each and every Prof Check with a twin engine failure from 1500 - 2000 ft.
Always over the runway of home of course!!!, and ensuring Nr control, Auto VNE and crew co-ordination is observed.
Maximum and minimum ROD can be practiced [streching the glide!!/.......
Its a really good co-ordinating execise..........
A good way I have found to entry the auto is to have a OEI situation with the full Immeadiate actions, and subsequent Check List adherance......then to continue downwind in a simulated OEI and have the applicant enter auto at a position "Upwind" that he/she believes they can achieve a nominated point on the runway.......at the point of auto entry, then you close the second throttle to ground idle.....achieve Nr...N2 split
[If the ego is huge, then a 180 downwind entry is called for......smile]
Passing 500 agl, both engines are advanced to Flight Idle and a normal flare and power recovery is achieved.
Have heard some Instructors advancing to Flight Idle in the flare....brave folk me thinks!!!
Any different view points on the technique will be treasured.....
Final words of wisdom.......never create a situation that endangers the aircraft and its contents more than the training value is worth!!!!........if you bend an aircraft...its not worth it.
Multi-crew and multi-engined crews tend to forget or at least not practice the basics as much as in the less sophisticated aircraft.
As standard procedure, I finish off each and every Prof Check with a twin engine failure from 1500 - 2000 ft.
Always over the runway of home of course!!!, and ensuring Nr control, Auto VNE and crew co-ordination is observed.
Maximum and minimum ROD can be practiced [streching the glide!!/.......
Its a really good co-ordinating execise..........
A good way I have found to entry the auto is to have a OEI situation with the full Immeadiate actions, and subsequent Check List adherance......then to continue downwind in a simulated OEI and have the applicant enter auto at a position "Upwind" that he/she believes they can achieve a nominated point on the runway.......at the point of auto entry, then you close the second throttle to ground idle.....achieve Nr...N2 split
[If the ego is huge, then a 180 downwind entry is called for......smile]
Passing 500 agl, both engines are advanced to Flight Idle and a normal flare and power recovery is achieved.
Have heard some Instructors advancing to Flight Idle in the flare....brave folk me thinks!!!
Any different view points on the technique will be treasured.....
Final words of wisdom.......never create a situation that endangers the aircraft and its contents more than the training value is worth!!!!........if you bend an aircraft...its not worth it.
Last edited by Old Man Rotor; 22nd Dec 2002 at 07:43.
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Been on the recieving end of both back, one a little to far therefore a few more lights on the cwp than normal. TRE puts fuel to x feed then relights the slient one, mean while i'm in the gear down 180 turn to the runway starting the flare as the wheels touch the throttles are being advanced to the flight position, thankful in the knowledge that i practise full touchdowns in singles. The 76 sure needs alot of forward cyclic to get that nose wheel down and you can hear the sound of rubber on tarmac.This happened during my conversion to type.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Come on Guys/Gals!!!!
This is an excellent topic and warrants more attention. I can't believe nobody else has anything to say?
If some individuals think they know the EC that good, then they must be able to write it out 'ver batum' both immediate and subsequent actions?
Sorry, but I 4 1 would like to get all the practice I can.
Cheers, Offshore (Training Captain) Igor
This is an excellent topic and warrants more attention. I can't believe nobody else has anything to say?
If some individuals think they know the EC that good, then they must be able to write it out 'ver batum' both immediate and subsequent actions?
Sorry, but I 4 1 would like to get all the practice I can.
Cheers,
Offshore (Training Captain) Igor
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Be patient........
The Xmas blues are still being enjoyed..........
Yes indeed a worthwhile topic....
Mr Moderator..........have you ever thought of a separate forum for Helio Instructors/ Check Pilots etc...???
The Xmas blues are still being enjoyed..........
Yes indeed a worthwhile topic....
Mr Moderator..........have you ever thought of a separate forum for Helio Instructors/ Check Pilots etc...???
Last edited by Old Man Rotor; 27th Dec 2002 at 11:04.
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ARE YOU READY FOR YOUR NEXT FLIGHT TEST ?
It could be on your very next flight when the engine quits in a single-engine helicopter. If you knew you had a flight test coming up I’m sure you would be out practicing.
Practicing emergencies is helpful as it builds habit patterns so you can do the correct things in a real one.
It could be on your very next flight when the engine quits in a single-engine helicopter. If you knew you had a flight test coming up I’m sure you would be out practicing.
Practicing emergencies is helpful as it builds habit patterns so you can do the correct things in a real one.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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I'm a firm believer that any trip you do should be as good as your checkride. You should have no doubt in your mind as to the procedure. This comes with training, training, training and a good dose of re-enforcement from CRM. In that I mean, the PIC should be initiating simulated emergencies (No throttles back please) all the time when you fly.
If a crew practices all the time, then the real thing should not be that much of a surprise.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
If a crew practices all the time, then the real thing should not be that much of a surprise.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
