AH-64 Apache
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An AH-64 aviator (A or D) has to fly 140 hours per year whether they are in the active componet or the National Guard. This flight time can be reduced if they enter late in their training year.
'Ang about - those blankets look familiar. Are they on a course at Wallop? I wonder if by the end of the course that photo will have some red Xs across a few faces.
Last edited by diginagain; 18th Jan 2006 at 10:06.
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Futurology
Oh, I know 6 Regt AAC(V) is groundies only. I have a personal interest in these developments.
The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.
Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.
The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.
Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.
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Intersting points FP, however Future Lynx and SABR are dead, BRH is the new buzz word and even if accepted at UK PLC level won't be here until 2012 at the earliest according to industry sources.
As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.
We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget
As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.
We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget
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Tee hee...
I don't really imagine a reservist will be flying AH anytime soon.
However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.
Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !
By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.
However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.
Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !
By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.
Avoid imitations
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As usual, too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.....
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AHQHI656SQN or any other AH driver:
Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?
If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!
PP
Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?
If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!
PP
Frog,
I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.
The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.
The Reserve has no State obligation.
These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.
Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.
Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.
The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".
I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.
The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.
The Reserve has no State obligation.
These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.
Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.
Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.
The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".
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Peoplespoet.
I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.
The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.
Please check your PM's.
I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.
The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.
Please check your PM's.
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I am in agreement with you Tom that i have heard nothing of the ammunition being cut for CTT or CTR. Think PP is fishing, and all you have to do is look at the amount we have for the forth coming exercise loads of bangs. Sorry PP but think you may be ill informed on this one.
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CPG and Peoplespoet.
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!
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I am not fishing, I'm no reporter. Thought it was a fair question best answered by an AH driver.
I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.
Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?
I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.
I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.
PP.
Very cynical
I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.
Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?
I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.
I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.
PP.
Very cynical
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I also remember the Ministries reasons for reducing the Armed Forces not so long ago included:
A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.
A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.
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Peoplespoet.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!
I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.
I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.
Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!
I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.
I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.
Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.
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OVC,
Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.
After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!
PP
Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.
After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!
PP
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derrrrr,
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?
It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!
Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!
P.P.
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?
It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!
Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!
P.P.