Bell 505 down in Ireland
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From: On the big blue planet
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Is the 505 a twistgrip throttle on the collective like the 206?
skadi
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From: Northumberland
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From: EGDC
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From: uk
Crab
It’s a rocker switch on the collective, idle/flt, both collectives have it and allows either pilot or instructor to go to idle.
cheers
SS
It’s a rocker switch on the collective, idle/flt, both collectives have it and allows either pilot or instructor to go to idle.
cheers
SS
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Thanks - so cooker-knob style OFF/IDLE/FLT switch?
Just wondering how finger trouble could have turned a practice auto into a real one.
Just wondering how finger trouble could have turned a practice auto into a real one.
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From: Canada
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From: EGDC
Thanks SS, that has nightmare scenario written all over it - is there a way of overriding the pilot selection (say it is set to idle accidentally) from the instructor's side or does the pilot's switch have to be physically moved back to FLT requiring a changing of hands by the instructor?
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From: South East Asia
It’s important to point out that either pilot can command the 505 to “Fly,” but both pilots have to command it to “Idle.”
It sounds safeguarded well enough in principle, but humans can mess things up.
In practice:
During training, the one doing powered maneuvers has their collective throttle switched to the “Fly” position, with the other switched to the “Idle” position. The aircraft was designed so that only one throttle is switched to the ‘Fly’ position,
However, for teaching full touchdown autorotations, the student has his throttle switched to “Idle,” and the instructor’s is in the “Fly” position. This way the instructor is in charge of going to “Idle” to start the maneuver, and he has ultimate control to go back to powered flight if necessary.
It sounds safeguarded well enough in principle, but humans can mess things up.
In practice:
During training, the one doing powered maneuvers has their collective throttle switched to the “Fly” position, with the other switched to the “Idle” position. The aircraft was designed so that only one throttle is switched to the ‘Fly’ position,
However, for teaching full touchdown autorotations, the student has his throttle switched to “Idle,” and the instructor’s is in the “Fly” position. This way the instructor is in charge of going to “Idle” to start the maneuver, and he has ultimate control to go back to powered flight if necessary.
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From: Shropshire
We used to take both engines to idle for autorotation training on the EC135 and 145, until one of our instructors stated "1000ft, both engines to flight............500ft, needles mat............Oh!! I have control". One switch failed to operate correctly.
We stopped doing that straight away and the 145 flight manual now forbids this for training (I assume the 135 is the same).
Cheers
TeeS
We stopped doing that straight away and the 145 flight manual now forbids this for training (I assume the 135 is the same).
Cheers
TeeS
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From: canada
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Thanks SS, that has nightmare scenario written all over it - is there a way of overriding the pilot selection (say it is set to idle accidentally) from the instructor's side or does the pilot's switch have to be physically moved back to FLT requiring a changing of hands by the instructor?
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From: Australia
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From: EGDC
So that should be straightforward then - the student (RHS) has FLT selected and the instructor (LHS) has IDL selected in normal flight. But if the student selects IDL as well then the instructor should be able to select FLT on his if the student forgets to reselect it after an auto?
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From: England
Originally Posted by [email protected]
So that should be straightforward then - the student (RHS) has FLT selected and the instructor (LHS) has IDL selected in normal flight. But if the student selects IDL as well then the instructor should be able to select FLT on his if the student forgets to reselect it after an auto?
The issue could be regularly swapping from one type (with a twist grip throttle) to the 505 for training. If you jump out of a 206 after having done auto's and into the 505 then yes, you could go to wind it open only to remember it's a switch, however the 505 spools up so fast to flight, you could get away with it until late into the flare.
The 505 is far more complex than it's predecessor (and the 44 etc) even though it's still a single.
If you're instructing on the 505, maybe you need to brief yourself before starting and as always, good CRM and TEM would hopefully pick up any potential issues.
With all that said, I can see how easy this happens. You have a long day teaching on the 22/44/206 etc and then at the end of that day jump into the 505 to do some auto's. Muscle memory is a twist grip.
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From: Dublin
Fatal helicopter crash occurred during training manoeuvre, says preliminary AAIU report
http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/...investigation/
http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/...investigation/
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From: Wantage
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From: Melbourne
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From: England
Always prepare to convert a practice auto for the real thing, therefore, pick a suitable site. Doesn't look like a very good site to me. RIP fellas.
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From: Ireland
The preliminary report appears to suggest everything about the chopper was in working order & that weather was not a factor. Looks like something went very badly wrong during the practice autorotation, with a heavy encounter with the ground followed perhaps by some kind of cartwheeling trajectory into the top of the building. RIP to both occupants.
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From: Australia
It looks like the apparent autorotations prior to the 6th and accident auto all approached or turned into the same general heading, which I assume was into a slight headwind. Most seemed to be over open farmland though the resolution in Figure 4 isn't high so hard to tell. For auto 4, it may have been a downwind start and turned into the wind during the descent? That seemed to be over woodlands. If intention was to turn into wind each time, then 6th auto may have initially approached in a crosswind(?). But it doesn't look like any obvious turn was being made that time? Hard to tell what potential landing point the pilot and instructor may have planned for. Can't imagine they aimed for the spot where the helicopter finally hit the ground.
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From: EGDC
The sequence of autos looks like a normal progression - AR 1 and 2 into wind, normal auto speed, AR 3 perhaps low speed auto (looks steeper on the line), AR 4 a 360 turning auto - leads me to suspect AR 5 and 6 were PFLs (practice forced landings) where the simulated engine failure is given and the student has to adjust speed and AoB in auto to make a suitable field.
Perhaps he went for the field before the crash site, flew a poor profile and then made the decision to go around far too late - they certainly hit the ground hard so maybe the instructor reselected FLY too late to allow the engine to spool up quick enough.
As Jeepys says - rule 1 applies but we've all had to compromise on occasions when suitable areas aren't plentiful.
Perhaps he went for the field before the crash site, flew a poor profile and then made the decision to go around far too late - they certainly hit the ground hard so maybe the instructor reselected FLY too late to allow the engine to spool up quick enough.
As Jeepys says - rule 1 applies but we've all had to compromise on occasions when suitable areas aren't plentiful.