EC-130 Crash California
Ok... I can't keep quiet anymore. Here we have a brother who has the cojones to come out and say I fell into one of the basic traps, got lucky, and am still here. All of a sudden, we get all the opinions about his ego and what an idiot he is or was, yada, yada, yada... someone even compared his decision to that of EMS pilots having to "save above all costs!!". the aviation sector of air ambulance is not told what the medical call is so as not to influence a completely aviation based decision on whether to go or not go..
I, for one, give Robbiee some credit for sharing what he learned so that the rest of us can benefit... Bravo Zulu, sir...
I, for one, give Robbiee some credit for sharing what he learned so that the rest of us can benefit... Bravo Zulu, sir...
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A genuine question I have always wondered about, (from a fixed wing big-jet pilot):
We have Minimum Safe Altitudes, or Minimum Sector Altitudes, or Minimum En-route Altitudes etc. These are surveyed and published, taking into account the highest ground in a given sector or either side of an airway, for example.
We look on the chart or our PLOG, and take note of the MSA where we are and always fly at least 1000' above that, (or 2000' above it in certain adverse meteorological conditions).
MSA is predicated on the barometric altitude. Do helicopter pilots also operate above minimum safe altitudes, and if so, heli pilots must be used to constantly checking their barometric altimeter, (as well as everything else), during flight ?
When 'scud running'; does a heli pilot deliberately fly below the MSA and hope they can see and stay above the terrain ?
We have Minimum Safe Altitudes, or Minimum Sector Altitudes, or Minimum En-route Altitudes etc. These are surveyed and published, taking into account the highest ground in a given sector or either side of an airway, for example.
We look on the chart or our PLOG, and take note of the MSA where we are and always fly at least 1000' above that, (or 2000' above it in certain adverse meteorological conditions).
MSA is predicated on the barometric altitude. Do helicopter pilots also operate above minimum safe altitudes, and if so, heli pilots must be used to constantly checking their barometric altimeter, (as well as everything else), during flight ?
When 'scud running'; does a heli pilot deliberately fly below the MSA and hope they can see and stay above the terrain ?
MSA is designed to let the Plank deliver people to an airfield.
AGL is designed to let the helicopter take the people to where they are needed. If AGL and IMC get too close together, then TAGBH. (Turn around, go back home.)
If IIMC and no CIR, then BOKYAG.
AGL is designed to let the helicopter take the people to where they are needed. If AGL and IMC get too close together, then TAGBH. (Turn around, go back home.)
If IIMC and no CIR, then BOKYAG.
When 'scud running'; does a heli pilot deliberately fly below the MSA and hope they can see and stay above the terrain ?
The end result is getting lower and slower (usually) before either turning back or landing.
If you do neither and push on into it, chances are you will end up IIMC with no plan, usually in a VFR only helicopter and with a pilot with no IR or even basic instrument training in cloud.
Most won't have a clue what the MSA is, let alone have the skills to get them there and back down again.
The end result is very often fatal - witness the number of discussions on these pages.
Apparently, doing this makes you a good pilot who sometimes **** happens to.
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"sometimes **** happens", although I can relate in practice, yes there are days when you get unlucky and get a bad set of cards.
The problem i have with this comment is that it goes against everything aviation stands for. In aviation we have systems and rule based logic for everything. That logic has been developed by design or experience over decades and decades and it is the foundation of all safety system. Saying that "**** happens" could be interpreted as saying the system is flawed and does not have to be complied with.
What do you think if Airbus Helicopter would say "sometimes **** happens" when a super puma lost its rotor head above Norway.
they would have been right but its not how aviation work, we get the bottom of it and take corrective action. (we make new design, new procedure....)
The problem i have with this comment is that it goes against everything aviation stands for. In aviation we have systems and rule based logic for everything. That logic has been developed by design or experience over decades and decades and it is the foundation of all safety system. Saying that "**** happens" could be interpreted as saying the system is flawed and does not have to be complied with.
What do you think if Airbus Helicopter would say "sometimes **** happens" when a super puma lost its rotor head above Norway.
they would have been right but its not how aviation work, we get the bottom of it and take corrective action. (we make new design, new procedure....)
Ah, OK.
A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
I didn't get Ascend Charlie's cryptic post....Plank, CIR, BOKYAG ??, but can you explain AGL, (I know it as "above ground level"), is that a helicopter equivalent of MSA ? Otherwise, how is a heli pilot in IMC to know what hills, high features or transmitter masts - or even trees - they are flying towards ?
Not judging, merely trying to understand helicopter operations.
Regarding the **** happens comment, I think it was a very unfortunate phrase but that Robbie has been misunderstood. Aviation safety is based on a foundation of disseminating information, including pilot mistakes. My read is that Robbie was telling us they had done something really stupid, as a warning to others not to be so stupid ?
A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
I didn't get Ascend Charlie's cryptic post....Plank, CIR, BOKYAG ??, but can you explain AGL, (I know it as "above ground level"), is that a helicopter equivalent of MSA ? Otherwise, how is a heli pilot in IMC to know what hills, high features or transmitter masts - or even trees - they are flying towards ?
Not judging, merely trying to understand helicopter operations.
Regarding the **** happens comment, I think it was a very unfortunate phrase but that Robbie has been misunderstood. Aviation safety is based on a foundation of disseminating information, including pilot mistakes. My read is that Robbie was telling us they had done something really stupid, as a warning to others not to be so stupid ?
Ah, OK.
A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
...
A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
...
1. The utility of most helicopters is in performing operations conducted VFR and below MSA.
2. Until recently in the US, helicopters could operate in class G airspace clear of clouds and “an airspeed to see and avoid.” Currently, the weather minimums are 1/2 mile visibility and remain clear of clouds.
3. Most small helicopters are inherently unstable. Leaving go of the controls will result in the aircraft departing controlled flight in seconds.
VFR into IMC accident investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) continually cite poor decision making as one of the main reasons pilots find themselves in these situations. Unlike other accident causes (e.g., mechanical failure), VFR into IMC usually does not occur instantly. Pilots either had the tools necessary to know the conditions ahead of time or should have recognized the worsening weather conditions. Failure to act or react to changes in conditions has continued to drive the high fatality rate.
Gaining a license is merely a license to begin the real learning process, that is gaining experience by doing. Along the way you make mistakes, some you get away with, some you don't, which may result in an accident, or at the very worse, death. No matter the level of experience everyone is capable of screwing the pooch and ending in a casket.
We can have all the training/fancy toys/experience in the world, but in the end, we're all just human, and **** happens,...and will always "just happen"
Ah, OK.
A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
I didn't get Ascend Charlie's cryptic post....Plank, CIR, BOKYAG ??, but can you explain AGL, (I know it as "above ground level"), is that a helicopter equivalent of MSA ? Otherwise, how is a heli pilot in IMC to know what hills, high features or transmitter masts - or even trees - they are flying towards ?
Not judging, merely trying to understand helicopter operations.
Regarding the **** happens comment, I think it was a very unfortunate phrase but that Robbie has been misunderstood. Aviation safety is based on a foundation of disseminating information, including pilot mistakes. My read is that Robbie was telling us they had done something really stupid, as a warning to others not to be so stupid ?
A fixed wing aircraft would never normally fly below the MSA unless they were landing, or in an extreme emergency. (And there is one low flying lesson; where an instructor takes students down to 500' agl to give them an appreciation of the cues of very low flying).
If a VFR fixed wing flew into IMC, the drill is to maintain altitude and perform a 180° rate one turn and fly back out of it. You could descend - as long as you remain a safe height above the MSA; which takes high ground, and high features such as transmitter masts, into account.
I didn't get Ascend Charlie's cryptic post....Plank, CIR, BOKYAG ??, but can you explain AGL, (I know it as "above ground level"), is that a helicopter equivalent of MSA ? Otherwise, how is a heli pilot in IMC to know what hills, high features or transmitter masts - or even trees - they are flying towards ?
Not judging, merely trying to understand helicopter operations.
Regarding the **** happens comment, I think it was a very unfortunate phrase but that Robbie has been misunderstood. Aviation safety is based on a foundation of disseminating information, including pilot mistakes. My read is that Robbie was telling us they had done something really stupid, as a warning to others not to be so stupid ?
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Obviously not - apart from training; which was all fixed wing - hence my question to you heli guys.
I have flown as passenger in twin Squirrels, Jetranger, Longranger, Bolkow 105 , Westland 30 etc, but never as a heli pilot.
But it seems a bit worrying if heli pilots are routinely flying below MSA during commercial work and/or with paying passengers on board ?
I have flown as passenger in twin Squirrels, Jetranger, Longranger, Bolkow 105 , Westland 30 etc, but never as a heli pilot.
But it seems a bit worrying if heli pilots are routinely flying below MSA during commercial work and/or with paying passengers on board ?
IFR helicopters won’t be ‘routinely flying below MSA’.
Uplinker - IFR for helicopters are the same as IFR for fixed wing
Too many of you are airline types and dont appreciate the different environment helicopters work in.. same way you cant apply same TEM to bush pilot ops vs Airline.. different skillsets. Most of you button-pushers would be horrified at a normal days flying for an Alaskan bush pilot let alone a heli pilot utilizing what a heli does best.
Also, the IFR environment is a PITA for a helicopter as its mainly setup for planks and their speeds.
regards from somebody who flies in both worlds and found out quickly there is no cross cultural exchange of info from either side to how we can co-exist safely..
Also, the IFR environment is a PITA for a helicopter as its mainly setup for planks and their speeds.
regards from somebody who flies in both worlds and found out quickly there is no cross cultural exchange of info from either side to how we can co-exist safely..
MSA is set to give clearance (1,000 ft) over the highest peak or obstacle in a large area (25 nm radius of a navaid or waypoint). Where there are hills there are often valleys. I enjoy flying in the valleys when the peaks are obscured by cloud. I'm often several thousand feet below MSA when flying in my local area. No emergency, no commercial operation, just flying because I enjoy flying.
To put this in perspective - my base airport is at 1,480 ft and has a charted MSA of 7,800 ft!
Crab’s post 106 nails the problem. But when this subject came up, there would still be those who maintained you could always “ get ‘er done “ without any IMC capability. About 2 months out of flight school with a whole 6 hours of hood time in an S-55 I had an experience that exemplified the issue. Took a little activity that was “irregular “ but made sure that didn’t happen again.
Chatting with somebody a few days ago here in the valley area, he seems to think they should look into the corporate culture of the company as he believes the two youngsters got pushed into the flight and were afraid to say no.
he believes the two youngsters got pushed into the flight and were afraid to say no
IFR for helicopters are the same as IFR for fixed wing