'Best' helicopter to learn to fly in....

[605carsten]

Best heli?
Do it in the one that is closest and most reliable/available to suit flying at least 2.5 times a week… especially at PPL level were getting basics down is most important. R44 if given the choice as there are alot around and you can bring your mates easier than a 2 seater. (Raven II with injection is best compromise as death by carb ice isnt a great idea..)

Flight schools have failed since the dawn of time so never pay more upfront than you can afford to lose, go modular so you have options to swap schools when something happens.

Also, please consider getting a set of flight sim controls and VR goggles… saves a crapload of dosh when learning to hover (in my case, Puma Trainer Helicontrols, Xplane 11 R44 and Quest2 VR goggles)

[Torquetalk]

Originally Posted by 605carsten

Also, please consider getting a set of flight sim controls and VR goggles… saves a crapload of dosh when learning to hover (in my case, Puma Trainer Helicontrols, Xplane 11 R44 and Quest2 VR goggles)

A good investment. Not only helpful for training hover reference, but much more. From training pattern work and panel scan (although a simulator needs a disproportionate instrument scan reference for learning to fly visually - overtraining eyes in), it will help with night, procedure training, instrument training and a surprising amount of skill tweaking for commercial flying. It will also help to develop a timely but light control input.

And I agree entirely wit meleagertoo about being spoilt by learning on more sophisticated aircraft. Someone I knew killed themselves in a Gazelle just after getting their PPL. If some of the basics had not be masked by the correlation and hydraulics of that aircraft, he might not have been so bold in putting himself in a very dangerous situation that far outstripped his capacity to cope.
CPL(A) confidence meets low time PPL(H) with no rotorcraft muscle memory - a deadly combination.

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But remember the Gazelle was used in the military as a trainer to prepare for more complex and faster operational types (in most cases) which almost always had a surplus of power - it was great trainer in that respect and a brilliant aircraft to fly (I'm still rated on it).

Since the military had no piston helicopters from the 70s onwards, why train on something like a Bell 47 just so you can learn overpitching and severe power limited techniques (none of which are exactly difficult to master)?

[Torquetalk]

I‘m with the 269, 47, Enstrom advocates on this. The less correlation aid for ab initio learning, the better. Even the R22 is not a very good aircraft for teaching correlation as the aircraft is operated in a power range where little or lag/overreaction happens - and it has a governor on top. The Robbies also come into balance more easily than a 269, even if flown quite badly. The hughes is easy to fly, but not so easy to fly nicely. Personal impression.

Part of the case for piston is not just cost: Faster engine response is an added safety margin, helping to recover wrong inputs, especially helpful if a low RRPM exercise is poorly done or the wrong inputs made in a simulated engine failure, and using throttle to manipulate yaw is very direct when teaching torque reaction for yaw issues.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by Torquetalk

I‘m with the 269, 47, Enstrom advocates on this. The less correlation aid for ab initio learning, the better. Even the R22 is not a very good aircraft for teaching correlation as the aircraft is operated in a power range where little or lag/overreaction happens - and it has a governor on top. The Robbies also come into balance more easily than a 269, even if flown quite badly. The hughes is easy to fly, but not so easy to fly nicely. Personal impression.

Part of the case for piston is not just cost: Faster engine response is an added safety margin, helping to recover wrong inputs, especially helpful if a low RRPM exercise is poorly done or the wrong inputs made in a simulated engine failure, and using throttle to manipulate yaw is very direct when teaching torque reaction for yaw issues.

Having flown the Schweizer and Enstrom after getting my ppl in an R22, I must say that having to manipulate the throttle is a "no biggie" skill and certainly not worth the higher cost of training in those aircraft.

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Unless you intend to fly an aircraft with little or no correlation after you have your licence - what on earth is the point of training on one?

Learn to fly on what you will fly in the future if you can afford it.

You don't need to learn on a unicycle to ride a bicycle.

Otherwise we'd be teaching F35 pilots on Sopwith Camels.

[Torquetalk]

It’s an argument. But I think that muscle memory is really valuable, also providing a strong base later for managing governing/EEC issues.

In the case mentioned, I‘m sure that the pilot involved needed to learn more nuts & bolts in something “ugly“ rather than be flattered by the Gazelle.

[Bellicose]

The best helicopter to learn to fly in?
Simple. It's the Bell 205A1- as it's the best helicopter ever.

[megan]

The best helicopter to learn to fly in?
Simple. It's the Bell 205A1- as it's the best helicopter ever

The chap may wish to use your wallet, no argument from me though, many a happy hour, first operational type.

[chopperchappie]

"Best Helicopter"

I learned to fly about 10+ years ago, I was very much like you by the sounds of your post a bit bemused by all of the commitment to a choice of who/how/where methodology.
To be fair not much has changed in the likely training aircraft candidates except the introduction of the Cabri.
I had advice coming out of my ears and in a lot of cases, contradictory statements so I took some advice that turned out to be really bad for me.
I'm not claiming I know whats best for you but I would say I leaned some tough lessons quickly. I'm happy to say what I found for myself and my situation.

Whilst I haven't read every post in this thread I have had a decent scan through and a lot of the advice given I would 100% concur;

• Aim to learn to fly what you think you'll fly - so that's most likely to be an R44 for most peoples "budget" multi passenger aircraft - if you think you'll fly something else then all these points can be ignored
• If the economics of learning on an R44 are too hefty then as many have said the transition from R22 to R44 is best*
• I would expect the cost of learning on R22 then doing (even say 8h) type rating on a R44 is likely to be less than learning on an R44 - so whats the most important budget or safety/consistency??
• Does R22 have some shortcomings - yes obviously most aircraft do - so learn about the situations (look at training course to learn about dangerous conditions) that could (are more likely to) arise in an R22 that are dangerous - such as loss of engine and loss of blade inertia & negative pushovers
• I would agree with the comment about getting the money first then doing it as one hit - even then its hard work over time to stay focused if you've got a busy life like most people - one hour a week is about a year commitment or two hours a week is about 6m

But think about when you start and plan your "hours" as much as possible as things will change - I ended up getting close to my test but struggling to fly as it was winter weather in hindsight I would have started and done enough hours a week to finish in August/September
I was also driving an hour having 2x 1hr lessons and driving an hour back nearly every Saturday - that really is enough and sometimes I was so tired on the way back I was at risk of falling asleep so location is important
* = I actually learned on a H269/H300 and it was really great to learn on very docile and I would suggest probably the best to learn on but I ran into continuity issues when my original instructor couldn't continue - hence why I would suggest the R22/R44 as they are ubiquitous.

Some people have suggested choosing the helicopter based on the instructor/school -
I absolutely agree that the instructor is a massive part of the equation but chosing an obscure helicopter because of an instructor is not a school of thought I subscribe to because;

• The things some people like are not always the things other people like - example one of my instructors "didnt like" flying near London because of the ATC & restrictions but flying helilanes is great (with experience)
• Not everyone gets on with everyone, so some instructor that your mate reckons is the best thing since sliced bread could really annoy you - its not until you are 5-10+ hours in that you'll feel the love or not
• If its a one man band instructor what happens in they go sick/awol/retires/has a family emergency
• If its a company your preferred instructor could leave them or the company could go bust - it happens even with big companies
• If you go with a company and they have multiple instructors you want to check you'll get continuity BUT it sometimes helps to fly occasionally with a different instructor they'll pick up on different things

And for those reasons I would NEVER pay more than 10 hours upfront even if the discount were massive - this is one thing that bit me as my one man band instructor stopped flying

I would also be quite pedantic about checking through your training record with your instructor as you learn - if you do need to change you need everything documented
Imagine the situation that you start learning on a random aircraft that you really like the instructor (say a Enstrom or a Bell47 or whatever) and after 20 hours your instructor fails their CAA medical and cant instruct, thats a sticky wicket, if you're learning with a company on an R22 they'll just roll in a different instructor and everything caries on as before! If you want to do something like this - have a back-up plan IMHO!
Now I would say there's a lot of individual instructors that are very good and you'll probably pay more with a company but I started with an individual and I ended up completing my training with a company.

I didn't see anyone talking about going to the states to learn - I don't know about the economics or logistics of that these days but you might want to into it for the weather if nothing else
I didn't see anyone talking about buying into a shared aircraft scheme - I did that and it took a lot off my overall costs - not for everyone but worth a look

Hope that helps
CC

[Robbiee]

Kids these days are always asking which helicopter they should train in. When I learned (twenty years ago) I knew absolutely nothing about helicopters and thus this question never once popped into my head.

There were two schools in my area. I went to one and got a bad vibe from the chief pilot, so I went and checked out the other one, didn't get a bad vibe, went on a demo flight, absolutely loved it, and a week later I began training.

They could have been flying the J100 Flipiddy-Flop for all I cared.

[hargreaves99]

I think the best method is having one "Regular" instructor, with the very occasional other instructor. The students I see who have multiple instructors always take longer to get their PPL, sometimes 10-20 hours more (ie it could cost you up to £8,000 more)

[meleagertoo]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Kids these days are always asking which helicopter they should train in. When I learned (twenty years ago) I knew absolutely nothing about helicopters and thus this question never once popped into my head.

An acquaintance of mine's son is doing his UK PPL(H). I was shocked - nay, horrified to learn that his motivation was so he could earn money by taking people to race-courses and 15hrs into the course had no idea whatsoever what type he was flying. In fact it seemed there were two types which were somewhat different, I suspect R22 and Colibri - but he hadn't a clue.
I can only wonder at the quality of the "school" he is learning at.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo

An acquaintance of mine's son is doing his UK PPL(H). I was shocked - nay, horrified to learn that his motivation was so he could earn money by taking people to race-courses and 15hrs into the course had no idea whatsoever what type he was flying. In fact it seemed there were two types which were somewhat different, I suspect R22 and Colibri - but he hadn't a clue.
I can only wonder at the quality of the "school" he is learning at.

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I don't think you quite understand what I was saying? I knew I was flying an R22. What I didn't know, was that there were different models out there that other schools used for training, and that "apparently" there's a rivalry between them over which is the best.

In other words, it never occurred to me to choose a school based on which model of helicopter they used.

[hargreaves99]

this is the problem with instructors only earning £50 per flight hour (when the student is paying £400-£600 per hour)

the result is instructors that don't really care about delivering proper instruction or advice or guidance etc... and why should they? when the office cleaner or gardener is probably earning more.

[helichris]

Originally Posted by hargreaves99

this is the problem with instructors only earning £50 per flight hour (when the student is paying £400-£600 per hour)

the result is instructors that don't really care about delivering proper instruction or advice or guidance etc... and why should they? when the office cleaner or gardener is probably earning more.

Bull****.

[Hughes500]

Hargreaves that is really disrespectful to those of us who are instructors, most really care about their students

[hargreaves99]

ok, maybe I was a bit harsh, but there is an industry-wide problem of instructor recruitment, retention and commitment resulting from poor pay that has not kept pace with inflation for the last 15-20 years.

[Hughes500]

depends really i pay my instructors between £ 250 and £ 400 a day

[hargreaves99]

SE UK R22/R44 schools pay £50-£55 per hr

nobody pays day rates

Originally Posted by Hughes500

depends really i pay my instructors between £ 250 and £ 400 a day