Minimum Height for 180° Auto in the Cruise
Rotorbee, you are right there is no real better way to train but we must never forget that a real engine failure is very unlikely to be like the practice ones.
And yes the sim is good but you do know it is coming - how many stare avidly at the engine instruments in the sim far more than you would in the real aircraft?
I agree the yaw is a good cue but more than that is the sound - your ear gets attuned to the right Nr and engine noise and it only has to change very slightly to provoke a reaction.
And yes the sim is good but you do know it is coming - how many stare avidly at the engine instruments in the sim far more than you would in the real aircraft?
I agree the yaw is a good cue but more than that is the sound - your ear gets attuned to the right Nr and engine noise and it only has to change very slightly to provoke a reaction.
Crab, please note, that I do not want to contradict you now, but I have a "but". I am not sure, if I would react faster to the loss of engine noise. Especially with turbine helicopters where sometimes the gearbox is quite loud, too. And with all the noise attenuating headsets, a brain will just tune the rest out. That might be the reason, why most if not all turbine helicopters have engine out warnings in the form of lights and "Bitching Betty". I think, from a "attention getting" point of view, something that comes up suddenly, is much more efficient, than something that goes away. AFIAK, that is the reason, why modern cockpits are designed as dark cockpits.
Again, as far as I know, because I have not flown everything out there, but from my experience and what is written in the POH's of those ships, in a piston helicopter the first indication is a yaw, for turbine helicopters it's an engine out light and sound.
Having said that, I have to add a disclaimer. I todays training world, throttle chops are a big NO NO. Today you have to yell "engine failure" and let the student do his/her thing. I don't know if that is better, because now the student never gets to experience the clues. For a better training experience the instructor should have a switch to make the engine out warning go of. That could be helpful. And all helicopters should have an engine out indication. Also every Robinson, Schweizer, Enstrom and Cabri.
I get it, why throttle chops are not en vogue anymore. Engine failures are so far down the list of preferred methods of beding helicopters, the gain in additional safety is small compared to the risk of additional accidents in training. Am I happy with that? No, because there is a tendency to train pilots to autorotate only to runways, to get it out of the way. Am I in favour of the full down auto? Yes, but to make somebody proficient in it, you need a lot of training time you don't have. On balance I prefer to do a lot of power recoveries to various spots all over the country side. The military can train its pilots to the standard they want, unfortunately in the civilian world, we can not do that.
Again, as far as I know, because I have not flown everything out there, but from my experience and what is written in the POH's of those ships, in a piston helicopter the first indication is a yaw, for turbine helicopters it's an engine out light and sound.
Having said that, I have to add a disclaimer. I todays training world, throttle chops are a big NO NO. Today you have to yell "engine failure" and let the student do his/her thing. I don't know if that is better, because now the student never gets to experience the clues. For a better training experience the instructor should have a switch to make the engine out warning go of. That could be helpful. And all helicopters should have an engine out indication. Also every Robinson, Schweizer, Enstrom and Cabri.
I get it, why throttle chops are not en vogue anymore. Engine failures are so far down the list of preferred methods of beding helicopters, the gain in additional safety is small compared to the risk of additional accidents in training. Am I happy with that? No, because there is a tendency to train pilots to autorotate only to runways, to get it out of the way. Am I in favour of the full down auto? Yes, but to make somebody proficient in it, you need a lot of training time you don't have. On balance I prefer to do a lot of power recoveries to various spots all over the country side. The military can train its pilots to the standard they want, unfortunately in the civilian world, we can not do that.
Rotorbee, I hear what you are saying but I have flown noisy turbines for 40 years and if a pilot needs an engine out light to tell them something has gone wrong then they are not listening to their aircraft.
Listening is vital, even with noise attenuating headsets, not just for engine malfunctions but for gearboxes, hyd pumps, rattles, bangs and other noises that helicopters often make just before (or just as) they are going wrong.
Trouble is when you are 200 plus miles out to sea, every flicker of a gauge or slight noise change is easy to perceive as impending doom
The yaw is noticeable in a piston but also in a single turbine, slightly less so in a twin because the other engine is still driving.
To give you an idea of how powerful the audio sense is - the Gazelle has a particular whine as the the engine shuts down and pilots would often transmit to ATC that they were complete as they chopped the throttle on shutdown - I and many colleagues have started to lower the lever in flight just from hearing that noise in the background of a radio transmission before realising it wasn't us.
I was on a checkride in a Wessex during training so I knew emergencies would come thick and fast - I had lifted to the hover and was doing a lookout turn, heard the engine note change and called 'Engine failure, landing', much to the amusement of my instructor who had done nothing and it was just the slight change in audio cue as I turned crosswind with the cockpit doors open.
Listening is vital, even with noise attenuating headsets, not just for engine malfunctions but for gearboxes, hyd pumps, rattles, bangs and other noises that helicopters often make just before (or just as) they are going wrong.
Trouble is when you are 200 plus miles out to sea, every flicker of a gauge or slight noise change is easy to perceive as impending doom
The yaw is noticeable in a piston but also in a single turbine, slightly less so in a twin because the other engine is still driving.
To give you an idea of how powerful the audio sense is - the Gazelle has a particular whine as the the engine shuts down and pilots would often transmit to ATC that they were complete as they chopped the throttle on shutdown - I and many colleagues have started to lower the lever in flight just from hearing that noise in the background of a radio transmission before realising it wasn't us.
I was on a checkride in a Wessex during training so I knew emergencies would come thick and fast - I had lifted to the hover and was doing a lookout turn, heard the engine note change and called 'Engine failure, landing', much to the amusement of my instructor who had done nothing and it was just the slight change in audio cue as I turned crosswind with the cockpit doors open.
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The military can train its pilots to the standard they want, unfortunately in the civilian world, we can not do that.
In the good old days. when pranks were allowed, I was Duty Instructor in the tower at Sy on a gorgeous summer afternoon. Viz was good and I could see streams of Gazelles transiting through the gates to the West. I pressed the tit and said 'Practice Engine Failure Go'. Hadn't laughed so much for years. Childish really!
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In the good old days. when pranks were allowed, I was Duty Instructor in the tower at Sy on a gorgeous summer afternoon. Viz was good and I could see streams of Gazelles transiting through the gates to the West. I pressed the tit and said 'Practice Engine Failure Go'. Hadn't laughed so much for years. Childish really!
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You funny old geezers. BTW, did any of the Gazelles actually go for the auto?
Anyway, the comparison of civilian and military training isn't fair anyway. Most of the flights in the military are training flights. As a civi jockey, we get training and then go out to make money for some company. That most of us survive it, is due to the fact that the training isn't so bad after all and helicopters are rather reliable.
Anyway, the comparison of civilian and military training isn't fair anyway. Most of the flights in the military are training flights. As a civi jockey, we get training and then go out to make money for some company. That most of us survive it, is due to the fact that the training isn't so bad after all and helicopters are rather reliable.
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The Gazelles did thousands of EOLs/full down autos in the Brit MIl, it was the sport of kings.
Most guys I taught on the instructor's course had flown EOLs in Gazelle during basic training but most of those had the assistance of the Hand of God from the instructor at the time. We had to build their confidence and skill to a point where they could not only go solo for EOLs but be able to correct student errors.
Valid point about the relative training systems but, while there are a lot of training sorties (often to keep current at the myriad of disciplines), a great many are operational flights (the Military equivalent of earning your company money).
Most guys I taught on the instructor's course had flown EOLs in Gazelle during basic training but most of those had the assistance of the Hand of God from the instructor at the time. We had to build their confidence and skill to a point where they could not only go solo for EOLs but be able to correct student errors.
Valid point about the relative training systems but, while there are a lot of training sorties (often to keep current at the myriad of disciplines), a great many are operational flights (the Military equivalent of earning your company money).
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Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Another obvious difference with military training was understanding that faults and failures often led to other faults and failures. On a check ride at low level, one of the Squadron QHIs would casually say "you've just taken a round to the Hydraulic pack", then take out the Hydraulics, after letting you wrestle with the controls for a bit and do the Gazelle straight-leg pedal lock, he would say "where do you think all that leaking fluid is going? I reckon it's going down the engine intake - Practice engine failure - Go". So now it's a zoom climb and then try to find a hole in the woods to put it down, all in manual reversion. Others argued that it was extremely unlikely and therefore unrealistic, but it certainly taught you to understand that bad news is never far away in a helicopter.
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Having said that, I have to add a disclaimer. I todays training world, throttle chops are a big NO NO. Today you have to yell "engine failure" and let the student do his/her thing. I don't know if that is better, because now the student never gets to experience the clues. For a better training experience the instructor should have a switch to make the engine out warning go of. That could be helpful. And all helicopters should have an engine out indication. Also every Robinson, Schweizer, Enstrom and Cabri.
I get it, why throttle chops are not en vogue anymore. Engine failures are so far down the list of preferred methods of beding helicopters, the gain in additional safety is small compared to the risk of additional accidents in training.
.
I get it, why throttle chops are not en vogue anymore. Engine failures are so far down the list of preferred methods of beding helicopters, the gain in additional safety is small compared to the risk of additional accidents in training.
.
I can live without calling VRS "SWP". I don't really care if they want to call LTE "unanticipated yaw". I can even accept the dumbing down of the Robby POH over this past decade,...
,...but I really miss throttle chops!
We don't need an "engine out" light. We need less "fresh off the assembly line time builders" teaching newbies, and more pilots with actual real world experience doing it.
Oh for ... sake. PPrune really has to do something about their site. Every time I want to post something, I am thrown out, because the cookie timed out. It takes time for me to write something in English hrrgttnchml (read Gaston and you now what I meant).
Anyway, Robbie, I am curious. What about the dumbing down of the Robinson POH? Please elaborate. I am there with you regarding the throttle chops. But some idiot instructors did it on unprepared students, even in climbs in an R22, which is very, very stupid. I think you can work with students to get them to the point where throttle chops are not dangerous anymore, but that is not something you do early in the training.
Regarding the low time instructors, that is the US-system. 135 work takes a minimum of 500h. 91 work is sparse. An the insurance companies are to blame, too. They don't care about low time pilots. I had the fortune to have an instructor with loads of experience, because I was one of his first students, when he opened his flight school.
Crab, I actually wanted to know, it OldBeefers prank worked and a bunch of Gazelles dropped out of the sky.
Anyway, Robbie, I am curious. What about the dumbing down of the Robinson POH? Please elaborate. I am there with you regarding the throttle chops. But some idiot instructors did it on unprepared students, even in climbs in an R22, which is very, very stupid. I think you can work with students to get them to the point where throttle chops are not dangerous anymore, but that is not something you do early in the training.
Regarding the low time instructors, that is the US-system. 135 work takes a minimum of 500h. 91 work is sparse. An the insurance companies are to blame, too. They don't care about low time pilots. I had the fortune to have an instructor with loads of experience, because I was one of his first students, when he opened his flight school.
Crab, I actually wanted to know, it OldBeefers prank worked and a bunch of Gazelles dropped out of the sky.
Last edited by Rotorbee; 18th Apr 2023 at 18:42.
Crab, I actually wanted to know, it OldBeefers prank worked and a bunch of Gazelles dropped out of the sky.
When we did throttle initiated EOLs on the Gazelle there was a standard brief where the NHP identified the throttle (in the roof) put his hand on it, moved it sideways out of the gate and only retarded it on the command '3, 2, 1 Go' - it worked well until some bright spark rearranged the callsigns so someone had 321Golf as theirs
When two staff instructors were flying together it was also important to retard the throttle when the HP said 'Go' and not when you thought they were going to say it - two chums only just made it to the EOL area when the HP changed the cadence of his 3,2,1 Go as he hadn't quite reached his desired entry point but the NHP chopped the throttle in anticipation of the 'Go' Cue drooping the Nr for extra range to make it over the fence.
Under autos, it used to say, "Adjust collective as necessary to keep rpm in the green arc,...". Now its, "between 97 and 110", which makes me wonder if students and new pilots are just getting really sloppy nowadays? I mean, the old way taught precision, and 97 isn't even the bottom of the yellow arc, 90 is, so wtf?
Combine this with some of the later Safety Notices and it just seems like Robinson thinks that pilot training has gotten worse (or pilots have just gotten dumber) in the last decade, or so, and need everything almost spoon fed to us?
,...but maybe its just me.
Seems like a good question to ask Robinson themselves.
Also ask if their Lawyers had an input re the changes.
Also ask if their Lawyers had an input re the changes.
Thread Starter
they added "pull mixture" to all three, as if they don't think we know how to shut down the engine anymore
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
It certainly would have caused some consternation amongst the crews on their way out of the VFR gate at Shawbury - I think from his comments that Oldbeefer saw a couple of aircraft perform self-initiated PFLs before realising they had been fooled.
When we did throttle initiated EOLs on the Gazelle there was a standard brief where the NHP identified the throttle (in the roof) put his hand on it, moved it sideways out of the gate and only retarded it on the command '3, 2, 1 Go' - it worked well until some bright spark rearranged the callsigns so someone had 321Golf as theirs
When two staff instructors were flying together it was also important to retard the throttle when the HP said 'Go' and not when you thought they were going to say it - two chums only just made it to the EOL area when the HP changed the cadence of his 3,2,1 Go as he hadn't quite reached his desired entry point but the NHP chopped the throttle in anticipation of the 'Go' Cue drooping the Nr for extra range to make it over the fence.
When we did throttle initiated EOLs on the Gazelle there was a standard brief where the NHP identified the throttle (in the roof) put his hand on it, moved it sideways out of the gate and only retarded it on the command '3, 2, 1 Go' - it worked well until some bright spark rearranged the callsigns so someone had 321Golf as theirs
When two staff instructors were flying together it was also important to retard the throttle when the HP said 'Go' and not when you thought they were going to say it - two chums only just made it to the EOL area when the HP changed the cadence of his 3,2,1 Go as he hadn't quite reached his desired entry point but the NHP chopped the throttle in anticipation of the 'Go' Cue drooping the Nr for extra range to make it over the fence.
1.“Identify the throttle”. The student was briefed to identify and put his hand on the correct lever (in the ceiling on the Gazelle).
2. “Out of the gate”. The student was briefed to bring the throttle out of the gated position.
3. “On my command 3-2-1……NOW!” Retard the throttle.
We used to get the student to practice the above whilst safely on the ground, prior to flying a low level circuit, descending on the final run in to 100’ and 130 kts for the EOL.
On this particular day, this practice brief was done and the student responded correctly.
The low level circuit was duly completed and on the run in at 100 feet my colleague said “Identify the throttle”……whereupon the student reached up, grabbed and instantly fully retarded the throttle.
The Gazelle ended up in a field half a mile short of Ternhill.
A suitably worded debrief was carried out.
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On the Puma HC1 we were required to practice double engine failures once a month, by having both throttles pulled by a squadron “beefer”. The aircraft was loaded to MAUM by the fitting of a steel frame in the cabin, and a suitable number of lead weights added to it.
The HC1 initially came with “draggy” metal main rotor blades and it was critical to be very prompt in lowering the collective when entering autorotation to prevent rotor under speed, and leaving it on the bottom stop whilst manoeuvring. When the aircraft were retrofitted with composite main rotor blades, as they all were, the handling in autorotation became quite different because the blades were much more efficient and the rotor could quite easily over speed in manoeuvre. Because of the poor engine response on the Puma, with no automatic anticipators on the engines, it was then very important to get the NR under control “in the governed band” before raising the collective to significantly pull power.
I went out with a new Beefer to carry out my monthly training. The brief was for the crewman to sit on the jump seat and handle the throttles, under the Beefer’s command. The brief was for the throttles to go forward at a low altitude once it was obvious the aircraft would make the chosen field and a flare recovery would then be carried out.
I carried out a couple of practices, which I thought were ok. The new Beefer then said he would show me how to do it properly because he thought I flared a bit too high…so I sat back to watch. Having climbed away, he went into QHI mode patter, demoed his auto, aiming for a cabbage field. Unfortunately he flared very late in my humble opinion and the NR was still above the governed band when he began to pull power. The NR drooped and the aircraft carved a swathe through a row of very nice cabbages as the patter ended in the words “Oh f******* hell!”. We then went back to base where shredded cabbage was hosed off the undercarriage.
I’m not going to name names but it wasn’t OldBeefer.
The HC1 initially came with “draggy” metal main rotor blades and it was critical to be very prompt in lowering the collective when entering autorotation to prevent rotor under speed, and leaving it on the bottom stop whilst manoeuvring. When the aircraft were retrofitted with composite main rotor blades, as they all were, the handling in autorotation became quite different because the blades were much more efficient and the rotor could quite easily over speed in manoeuvre. Because of the poor engine response on the Puma, with no automatic anticipators on the engines, it was then very important to get the NR under control “in the governed band” before raising the collective to significantly pull power.
I went out with a new Beefer to carry out my monthly training. The brief was for the crewman to sit on the jump seat and handle the throttles, under the Beefer’s command. The brief was for the throttles to go forward at a low altitude once it was obvious the aircraft would make the chosen field and a flare recovery would then be carried out.
I carried out a couple of practices, which I thought were ok. The new Beefer then said he would show me how to do it properly because he thought I flared a bit too high…so I sat back to watch. Having climbed away, he went into QHI mode patter, demoed his auto, aiming for a cabbage field. Unfortunately he flared very late in my humble opinion and the NR was still above the governed band when he began to pull power. The NR drooped and the aircraft carved a swathe through a row of very nice cabbages as the patter ended in the words “Oh f******* hell!”. We then went back to base where shredded cabbage was hosed off the undercarriage.
I’m not going to name names but it wasn’t OldBeefer.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 19th Apr 2023 at 06:29.
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,...but maybe its just me.
Much like noticing how young policemen and doctors look nowadays.....
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
No, Robbiee, you are just getting older like the rest of us and remembering your glory days through rose-tinted glasses like the rest of us
Much like noticing how young policemen and doctors look nowadays.....
Much like noticing how young policemen and doctors look nowadays.....
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