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question about Rule 5 ("500 foot rule")

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question about Rule 5 ("500 foot rule")

Old 30th Jan 2023, 09:24
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question about Rule 5 ("500 foot rule")

can somebody point me in the direction of where the actual UK/CAA Rule 5 text is? ie the "500 foot" rule

i am looking at this:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/.../contents/made

but all i see is reference to the "1,000 foot" rule, it doesn't mention the "500 foot" rule at all

???
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 09:48
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You could try here:

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4%20No.1496.pdf
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 10:02
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ok thanks, i have just found it buried here, in page 22

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...01:0066:EN:PDF

and here

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1110/

it would be handy if there was one place where all the regulations are, but there seem to be about five
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 13:09
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Originally Posted by hargreaves99 View Post
ok thanks, i have just found it buried here, in page 22

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2012:281:0001:0066N:PDF

and here

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1110/

it would be handy if there was one place where all the regulations are, but there seem to be about five
welcome to UK Law
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 21:15
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Originally Posted by hargreaves99 View Post
ok thanks, i have just found it buried here, in page 22

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2012:281:0001:0066N:PDF

and here

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1110/

it would be handy if there was one place where all the regulations are, but there seem to be about five
Be careful. You've made 2 mistakes here. Your first reference is to European law not UK Law. There is a similar rule in our law but your link is to the European one (which is not now the same). Your second link is to UK law but it has been superseded.

Currently the law is complex but the CAA are (slowly) simplifying it. So, the rules are (nearly) all in one place. Just google "CAA Regulation" and all the current regulations are there.CAA Regulations
Now you need to have a tiny bit of knowledge here but the bits you want are in several places. The general flying "rules" and in Part SERA - click through the "Basic Regulation" link first Basic Regulation
Now scroll down to SERA. In here you'll find the general rules which are roughly identical to the European ones. Open up the document.

The bit you want is SERA.5005(f) (page 98)

SERA.5005.(f)
This seems to say "You cannot fly lower than 500ft".

Except note it says "...unless by permission from the competent authority". This is of course the CAA who have given their permission which is where ORS4 1496 comes in (thank you Shy Torque). This states you can fly lower than 500ft provided you stay more than 500ft from people, vehicles, vessels or structures.

Now what about Rule 5? Well the low flying rule WAS Rule 5 in the Rules of the Air Regulations in 2005. But when Part SERA was brought in, the Rules of the Air Regulation got heavily updated (RoA 2015) and Rule 5 became something else entirely (it's now the rule about landing near open air assemblies and in congested areas).

I hope that brings together all the great stuff posted so far. May I suggest you read Rule 11 in RoA 2015 - this is about ATZ. Outside of controlled airspace infringements, violation of Rule 11 has produced a very big wedge of prosecutions, penalties and slapped wrists.

The CAA say they are going to simplify this with some form of easy access which includes SERA, RoA 2015 and the ORS4. Which is hilarious as that's exactly what was available just prior to Brexit (it was called the consolidated rules of the air and was really good). How the wheel turns...
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 21:22
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ok, great thanks.

i can't believe just trying to find a very simple, very common very important rule is so complicated, and the CAA wonder why pilots/instructors/owners have "gaps" in their knowledge?

the whole situation is, quite frankly, absurd,
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 21:25
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I hope that brings together all the great stuff posted so far. May I suggest you read Rule 11 in RoA 2015 - this is about ATZ. Outside of controlled airspace infringements, violation of Rule 11 has produced a very big wedge of prosecutions, penalties and slapped wrists.
can you point to where "rule 11" is?
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 21:28
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The CAA are not perfect but take a look at the Air Operations Regulation and you'll see they have starting making headway on bringing the regulations into a readable format. I'm sure I read somewhere that rules of the air and FCL are next.

Nothing for it unfortunately but to keep working at it.

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Old 31st Jan 2023, 00:15
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Ah yes....the UK Air Law....so glad I missed all of the EU/EASA/Brexit fun and games.

I read threads like this and I look at my flying Licenses safely held behind Glass and hanging on the Wall.

Unlike a certain fellow I know....I do not have a sign and hammer hanging next to them saying. "In Case of Emergency....Break Glass!".

There is no emergency dire enough for me to be tempted to do that.
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 12:55
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Hargreaves,

An easy to read "rule 11" guide

https://airspacesafety.com/wp-conten...rafficZone.pdf


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Old 31st Jan 2023, 13:27
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Ah yes....the UK Air Law....so glad I missed all of the EU/EASA/Brexit fun and games.

I read threads like this and I look at my flying Licenses safely held behind Glass and hanging on the Wall.

Unlike a certain fellow I know....I do not have a sign and hammer hanging next to them saying. "In Case of Emergency....Break Glass!".

There is no emergency dire enough for me to be tempted to do that.
I can't imagine who you are referring to!!


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Old 31st Jan 2023, 13:43
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Originally Posted by Barotrauma View Post
Hargreaves,

An easy to read "rule 11" guide

https://airspacesafety.com/wp-conten...rafficZone.pdf


Barotrauma
Good guide but I would add that if you don't get a reply on the appropriate frequency it does not mean you can go through. One person was prosecuted for going through Ternhill on a weekend (different frequency on a weekend) and some ATZ are H24.
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 14:07
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212man....where do you think I got the idea from!
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 16:19
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Originally Posted by gipsymagpie View Post
if you don't get a reply on the appropriate frequency it does not mean you can go through.
Am I missing something here or have I just been lucky? Ive flown through dozens of ATZs without speaking to anyone on the ground. Called up on the notified frequency, no reply, so made blind calls about position, height and route etc and then cracked on through. Have I really been doing it wrong for many years or is this a recent(ish) change? JJ
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 16:36
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Am I missing something here or have I just been lucky? I’ve flown through dozens of ATZs without speaking to anyone on the ground. Called up on the notified frequency, no reply, so made blind calls about position, height and route etc and then cracked on through. Have I really been doing it wrong for many years or is this a recent(ish) change? JJ

I have also done the same for years

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...ersion%203.pdf

see page 66

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Old 1st Feb 2023, 03:05
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GypsyMagpie Your Links to the UK regulations and explanations have been very useful. Thank you
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Old 1st Feb 2023, 06:40
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Originally Posted by hargreaves99 View Post
I have also done the same for years

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...ersion%203.pdf

see page 66

That's the most lethal bit of rope I've ever seen the CAA lay out for someone to hang themselves upon. Rule 11 does not talk about ATSU being "active". It's the ATZ being active upon which the law is based. 99% of the time Skyway is 100% right but....

Here's 2 examples:

Boscombe Down ATZ - hours of operation H24, has ATC (which isn't there all the time but it doesnt matter for Rule 11). Rule 11 states it applies during the hours of the ATZ (which is H24) and further states: "...(3) If the aerodrome has an air traffic control unit the commander must obtain the permission of that unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone.". So no matter whether ATC is actually in the tower you have to obtain permission. Which is impossible by radio since no one is there. You fly through it out of hours, you could be prosecuted. No matter what Skyway says.

Second example - Ternhill ATZ. Active by NoTAM. Has Shawbury ATC Freq next to it on the chart. On a weekend, pilot sees NoTAM calls up on Shawbury, hears nothing, flies through and bang - 4000 fine (and you'll never be an examiner of Form 4 holder). It turns out there's two possible frequencies for the same ATZ due to gliding taking place at weekends. (See CAA prosecutions here - CAA 2019)

It pays to not make assumptions with ATZ and take a little detour unless you've planned in detail. Unless you have 4000 to burn of course.

And Skyway needs a tweak - that section is just plain wrong. Email to the CAA in progress. If you look on the website you'll note there is already a correction to Skyway v3 because they got some rules wrong (transition altitudes). Skyway is good, but it's not perfect

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Old 1st Feb 2023, 08:29
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Why would you want to fly through a potentially active ATZ without being clear what activity is taking place within it? There are plenty of activities that take place above normal circuit height - FW PFLs, RW autorotations, Procedural IF practice.
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Old 1st Feb 2023, 11:32
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Military ATZs are deemed to be active at all times. ATZs at civilian airfields are active according to their published opening times.

I was once involved in two “AirProxes” inside the same military ATZ. Both were very close shaves and both involved civilian aircraft entering the airspace without making radio contact.

One involved an elderly sounding pilot who seemed to think it was perfectly OK to transit through because he was keeping a very good lookout (he never saw me) and said he had been following the same railway line as a navigation feature for thirty years! He rang me and told me off for describing his aircraft as “Cessna 152/172 like” when it was in fact a Citabria! All I saw was a blue tail fin streak past very close, right under my nose. RAF ATC followed his progress and saw him descending to land a few miles away. Apparently he denied being in the ATZ but said he was flying along the railway line - which was inside the ATZ.

The other occurred on a very hazy summer day as my student had begun the takeoff roll in our Bulldog and got to about 50 kts, just below lift off speed. The circuit was full and we had been given takeoff clearance after being told to line up and wait, to allow a preceding landing aircraft to clear the runway ahead. As we rolled, a glider flew straight over us from behind and landed on the grass just ahead of us! My student was a bit surprised to say the least and perhaps understandably froze. I took control and managed to swerve left to avoid the glider, but our starboard wing passed over the port wingtip of the glider as we lifted off. I didn’t attend the “heavy debrief” given by ATC to the glider pilot but I spoke to SATCO later who said that the glider pilot (taking part in a cross country competition) was initially of the opinion that he had right of way at all times because of the “steam giving way to sail” rule. It turned out that he had a radio but didn’t use it and why he chose to land on the active runway when the airfield was all grass and therefore over 3,500 feet wide is anyone’s guess.
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Old 1st Feb 2023, 12:43
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
Military ATZs are deemed to be active at all times. ATZs at civilian airfields are active according to their published opening times.
Shytorque - some great examples there. One tiny tweak to your statement above though. The military ATZ are not all active H24. If you look in the civilian AIP at ENR 2-2 it list the operating hours of each military ATZ. Some are quite complex (try Cranwell for example) but the principle you express is right - avoid them unless you're positive you have planned in detail/spoken to ATC / have blacked out your registration.


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