Logging of Flight Time If Aircraft Is Unregistered

[SASless]

An unmarked (apparantly showing no registration numbers) was seized by Mexican Law Enforcement authorities after it was used to facilitate the escape of a wanted individual.

Just curious....if the Pilot did not make any required Log entries (aircraft or personal logbook)....would he be able to log that flight time?

Which would get him into more. trouble...logging or not logging?


https://www.breitbart.com/border/202...e-from-arrest/

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by SASless

An unmarked (apparantly showing no registration numbers) was seized by Mexican Law Enforcement authorities after it was used to facilitate the escape of a wanted individual.
Just curious....if the Pilot did not make any required Log entries (aircraft or personal logbook)....would he be able to log that flight time?
Which would get him into more. trouble...logging or not logging?
https://www.breitbart.com/border/202...e-from-arrest/

Technically in FAA land there is no need to log any flights other than those required to show you meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, and recency of experience. I have not kept a log book since 2005. I just keep my part 135 duty time sheets as a record.

[Helicopterdriverguy]

If the aircraft isn’t registered it can’t be insured,have airworthiness cert,radio licence ect
so would be illegal ,big fine ,no way to plead not guilty as the pilot has already admitted it in his logbook

[Torquetalk]

For flying which aircraft?

[lelebebbel]

Years ago I came across a fellow pilot who had about 1,000hrs of H369 tuna spotting time written in his logbook, but probably wouldn't have been able to tell you on which side you're supposed to sit when flying one. We figured he had been sitting in the harbour in Guam and just copying the registration numbers of the machines that came through on the fishing boats, and since those things usually don't have much in terms of real flight records, or any legitimate paperwork for that matter, you couldn't really proof he made it all up.

​​​​​​Brings up the question, what would you write in the aircraft ID column if you wanted to log time in an unregistered aircraft?

[pilotmike]

Originally Posted by lelebebbel

​​​​​​Brings up the question, what would you write in the aircraft ID column if you wanted to log time in an unregistered aircraft?

I wouldn't want the problem, so I'd avoid any situation that would require me to have to resolve the problem.

[Phoinix]

I'm amazed at that fact, no flight time logs... no wonder there are so many pilots going: "I reckon I have about 30.000 flight hours,... it's all in my head..."

[SASless]

Why is that such a surprise to you?

Unless you need hours for a a Rating, License, or some required administrative reason.....why is there a need to log your flight time in a personal logbook?

So long as the proper entries are made in the aircraft logbook/maintenance records to track hours, landings, cycles, etc.....what is the problem?

As Gordy noted....he tracks his flight time and duty hours for Commercial Flying by means of required FAA Part 135 documentation.

That meets the FAA requirements.

Your Authority may have different rules that you. have to comply with....but then that is a different kettle of fish isn't it?

[Phoinix]

I thought it was common sense and yes, the rules are in effect in the same way in EASA.

What about when a non-logger applies for a job opening, requiring say 3000 pic, 500 night, 500 ifr.

How does he/she prove the numbers if they don‘t log?

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by Phoinix

What about when a non-logger applies for a job opening, requiring say 3000 pic, 500 night, 500 ifr.
How does he/she prove the numbers if they don‘t log?

They are the people who should log hours. As someone who regularly hires pilots, I do a background check and call previous employers. I may never be able to verify hours down to the exact number, but I will get a good indication of how many hours the applicant should have.

In terms of skill set---if they claim 200 hours of mountain time, I can fid out real quick---I am lucky to have Shasta Bally, a 6,000' mountain a mere 17 miles from our base at 500'. It becomes obvious real quick when I load an aircraft to max gross for those conditions and have them fly me up there.

[Phoinix]

Fair enough

[helichris]

Originally Posted by Gordy

They are the people who should log hours. As someone who regularly hires pilots, I do a background check and call previous employers. I may never be able to verify hours down to the exact number, but I will get a good indication of how many hours the applicant should have.

In terms of skill set---if they claim 200 hours of mountain time, I can fid out real quick---I am lucky to have Shasta Bally, a 6,000' mountain a mere 17 miles from our base at 500'. It becomes obvious real quick when I load an aircraft to max gross for those conditions and have them fly me up there.

In other words, a logbook means almost nothing.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by helichris

In other words, a logbook means almost nothing.

It is a personal record of flight time. It gives employers an idea of what you have done. I use the same logic I taught my daughter with respect to guys telling her stuff: "Trust but Verify".

Over the years there have been too many people abusing the system and "parker penning" hours which has led to more scrutiny.

FAA inspectors, designated examiners, US Forest Service Pilot Inspectors are all scrutinizing logbooks more than they used to.

As for potential pilots, I have been in this industry many years, and been Chief Pilot or Director of Operations for the last 25 years. There are only so many utility companies in the US that do fire and power line work. I have the phone number of all the DO's and CP's and have probably drank beer with them. Any pilot in the US who thinks he can "parker pen" utility hours should really think twice. I am here to protect the company and company assets.

So nope, a logbook is not a useless document, but I will and so will every Chief Pilot I know "trust but verify".....

[helichris]

Originally Posted by Gordy

It is a personal record of flight time. It gives employers an idea of what you have done. I use the same logic I taught my daughter with respect to guys telling her stuff: "Trust but Verify".

Over the years there have been too many people abusing the system and "parker penning" hours which has led to more scrutiny.

FAA inspectors, designated examiners, US Forest Service Pilot Inspectors are all scrutinizing logbooks more than they used to.

As for potential pilots, I have been in this industry many years, and been Chief Pilot or Director of Operations for the last 25 years. There are only so many utility companies in the US that do fire and power line work. I have the phone number of all the DO's and CP's and have probably drank beer with them. Any pilot in the US who thinks he can "parker pen" utility hours should really think twice. I am here to protect the company and company assets.

So nope, a logbook is not a useless document, but I will and so will every Chief Pilot I know "trust but verify".....

I know what a logbook does. I also know what it doesn't do and that's determine experience and competency. Nobody has ever looked at my logbook one time for a job in 20 years. The FAA and whoever can stare at logbooks all day long but they're kidding themselves if they think it's anything but a waste of time.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by helichris

The FAA and whoever can stare at logbooks all day long but they're kidding themselves if they think it's anything but a waste of time.

Like I said, the are scrutinizing more..... A logbook gives me a place to start. More to the point, their resume is what I really want to see.

And not sure what part of the industry you are in, but if you are in fire, your reputation will probably precede you unless you are new to it. If you are new to it, and only have the minimum hors required, then expect to be scrutinized. THE USFS inspectors here in Region 5 & 6 want paperwork a few days ahead of carding rides now so they can "scrutinize and verify".

[happyjack]

A personal flying log book is precisely that. It is personal. Whether the hours count for anything afterwards is a different story?
If you have operated in any way as part of the "operating crew" you should log the time.
I reckon I lost 1000hrs TT following this nonsense trying to make it legal. Just log it.
How about this one.... I had a flying licence but not on the aircraft in any way. I hand flew it (a twin jet) 2 hours across europe pre RVSM including take off and landing. Do you suggest I do not log that in my personal flying log book? It has very limited value for anything but it was real, it happened, I learned a lot from it. It should be logged?

[Lama Bear]

I watched a court case that involved a pilot in a fatal accident. The lawyers were much more thorough than the Feds. Every entry was examined. It was obvious that the pilot had fabricated many entries. Be forewarned.

[helichris]

Originally Posted by Lama Bear

I watched a court case that involved a pilot in a fatal accident. The lawyers were much more thorough than the Feds. Every entry was examined. It was obvious that the pilot had fabricated many entries. Be forewarned.

Too bad this thread isn't about falsifying logbook entries but thanks for the warning.

If you are rated in an aircraft and you flew it, you can log it. There may be some circumstances where it may not count towards a certificate or rating, though. I would not log time in an aircraft I could not legally fly (not sure how RVSM fits into this!).

As far as the original question, I wouldn't bother logging a little 206 time if it would implicate me in a crime, but I also haven't put anything in a logbook in 11 years. Logbooks are of nostalgic value only at some point.

[megan]

So nope, a logbook is not a useless document, but I will and so will every Chief Pilot I know "trust but verify".....

There was a story on these hallowed pages some where about a chap at a job interview showing his logbook to the prospective employer who then commented "I see you've flown my private aircraft", lad had trouble explaining how he supposedly got to fly an aircraft that had never been out of the owners hands.

When I began flying it was not uncommon for the regulator to ask you to forward your log book for checking. Was a once only for me for I shortly joined the military. Find the logs a useful reference at times when asked when did such and such occur, and a trip through memory lane.

[SASless]

My Logbook drove the UK CAA round the bend....over two thousand hours were in the form of US Army Official Flight Records....none of which were in a bound Log Book.

Then, in the Logbook itself were the equivalent of Journal Entries complete with photos and other documents stapled to the various pages....some with a single flight annotated on a page.

Then of course, all those hours were logged per US FAA Standards rather than CAA Standards.

Your Logbook is yours....for your use and your desired purposes.....among which are meeting the requirements for the Authority to which you shall offer them as evidence of your past flying experience, and qualifications.

I was particularly amused by the UK string bound cardboard booklets in which all sorts of pieces of paper were retained by a piece of string......how stylish that was.

In those days the FAA Pilot Certificate (in the UK it would called a License) was a small paper card, the Medical Certificate was a slightly bigger piece of paper, and the RT License was another small piece of paper....none of which were contained in any kind of booklet or cover.

One folded the medical thing to the right size and placed all three inside your Wallet.

Different strokes for different Folks.

I still have my collection of Licenses...Ten different countries.....some full Licenses and some were validations,

I was offered a job flying on DC-4's that seemed quite well compensated....and when I reminded the friend that was offering that I had no experience in DC-4's and no Type Rating and that logging my time would be awkward.....he suggested that did not matter as if we got caught the License and Logging would be the very least of our worries considering what the cargo being hauled out of South America was. Legally....I could have logged every minute of that time....but it would not count towards any License or License qualification/rating or privilege.....but it would count towards total flying hours and hours on type in in what kind of flght conditions.