22 year old killed by tail rotor
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The OP linked article from the Mail has been changed for the 3rd or 4th time, but the (in)accuracies will only be sorted when and if any security vision is reviewed and released.
Meanwhile the comments from the Police don’t inspire confidence. No wonder the rotors couldn’t be seen when they are spinning at such a phenomenal speed 🤔
Meanwhile the comments from the Police don’t inspire confidence. No wonder the rotors couldn’t be seen when they are spinning at such a phenomenal speed 🤔
'There are two propellers on the helicopter. One that operates on 500 turns/second and one that operates at 2500 turns/second. These propellers run for about 2 minutes from the time he turns the engine off unless he presses a button which stops them at 50 seconds. Also keep in mind that the propellers are not visible because of the speed.'
Young life has been lost, parents/family/friends are devastated, so please keep the level of discussion! These saddened people might read this forum, for God`s sake!
As former helicopter crewchief for years, I have witnessed (too) many cases where well briefed, even trained "passengers" did unbelievable things when embarking/disembarking helicopter. I recall police officers from traffic police, joining on traffic patrols, that habitually tried to walk around tail of a Jet Ranger, as they were trained to always walk behind cars, not in front of, and all training/briefings about helicopters did not help even when I used graphically explicit photos of decapitated people that walked into rotors in my training presentations. I personally saved more than one from rotors by pulling them away (even pushed one journalist to the ground once) . I also went thru several chilling moments when someone, I thought well trained, did a potentially lethal thing like tried to climb uphill from a helicopter aftr disembarkation, went in front of A-109 from left to right.... To reasonably prevent such things it is either do it with rotors stopped or at least make sure to escort folks one by one to/from helicopter to (relative) safety. I learned from those chilling moments and I would escort max. two civillian persons at a time, holding them by their collars or similar. (troops, special forces etc. obviously not)
But what also bothers me is that (if true to reports) police UNION boss gave statements on police investigation progress/details and that Ioannis Kandyllis, president of Greece’s committee for aviation accidents, which is probing the tragedy, said Mr Fenton headed back towards the aircraft “at pace”.“All four passengers had disembarked and were escorted to a private lounge awaiting a private flight for London. But as they were in the lounge, the victim broke away and returned to the tarmac, rushing to the helicopter at a fast pace,” Mr Kandyllis said.
If those two individuals really gave these statements, then this place is (still) way out of order. I can`t get it that a police union rep can comment ongoing police investigation and that a chief aviation investigator can give out such information as facts so soon after the accident.
I worked in Greece as maintenance tech on A-320 for local airline some 25 years ago and there were many weird arrangements and events, that prompted me and my colleagues to question ourselves (over beer) how this country managed to get into EU at all at the time. And from above it seems some basic stuff was still not grasped. I am really worried for the crew involved in this tragedy, considering Alan Irwin`s experience. If it comes out that they really left the passengers to disembark on their own - unescorted, well, that is problematic by my opinion. Only an unbiased witness (CCTV video) might know the truth for now, it seems. Everything else is just noise and contradictory statements.
As former helicopter crewchief for years, I have witnessed (too) many cases where well briefed, even trained "passengers" did unbelievable things when embarking/disembarking helicopter. I recall police officers from traffic police, joining on traffic patrols, that habitually tried to walk around tail of a Jet Ranger, as they were trained to always walk behind cars, not in front of, and all training/briefings about helicopters did not help even when I used graphically explicit photos of decapitated people that walked into rotors in my training presentations. I personally saved more than one from rotors by pulling them away (even pushed one journalist to the ground once) . I also went thru several chilling moments when someone, I thought well trained, did a potentially lethal thing like tried to climb uphill from a helicopter aftr disembarkation, went in front of A-109 from left to right.... To reasonably prevent such things it is either do it with rotors stopped or at least make sure to escort folks one by one to/from helicopter to (relative) safety. I learned from those chilling moments and I would escort max. two civillian persons at a time, holding them by their collars or similar. (troops, special forces etc. obviously not)
But what also bothers me is that (if true to reports) police UNION boss gave statements on police investigation progress/details and that Ioannis Kandyllis, president of Greece’s committee for aviation accidents, which is probing the tragedy, said Mr Fenton headed back towards the aircraft “at pace”.“All four passengers had disembarked and were escorted to a private lounge awaiting a private flight for London. But as they were in the lounge, the victim broke away and returned to the tarmac, rushing to the helicopter at a fast pace,” Mr Kandyllis said.
If those two individuals really gave these statements, then this place is (still) way out of order. I can`t get it that a police union rep can comment ongoing police investigation and that a chief aviation investigator can give out such information as facts so soon after the accident.
I worked in Greece as maintenance tech on A-320 for local airline some 25 years ago and there were many weird arrangements and events, that prompted me and my colleagues to question ourselves (over beer) how this country managed to get into EU at all at the time. And from above it seems some basic stuff was still not grasped. I am really worried for the crew involved in this tragedy, considering Alan Irwin`s experience. If it comes out that they really left the passengers to disembark on their own - unescorted, well, that is problematic by my opinion. Only an unbiased witness (CCTV video) might know the truth for now, it seems. Everything else is just noise and contradictory statements.
Last edited by hoistop; 28th Jul 2022 at 09:23.
Avoid imitations
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There was a similar case near us, a few years ago. A young child was left outside a town centre pub by his parents who were drinking inside. The child crossed a minor road, fell into the canal and drowned. His mother later campaigned in the local paper to have the entire canal fenced off. It’s about 46 miles long and has been there for almost three centuries.
I find it very disappointing that so many of the comments about this accident blame the victim. Those who operate helicopters and support helicopter operations know how they work, understand that there are dangerous tail rotors which are invisible when turning and that the machine must only be approached in certain sectors. The helicopter landing pad is a dangerous and alien environment to most members of the public, and to occasional passengers, who may not even be aware that helicopters have tail rotors.
The operator has an absolute duty of care towards paying passengers and if there are insufficient trained staff on the ground to guide passengers (who could include children) then the helicopter should shut down and stop the rotors before disembarking passengers. Briefings are not enough – people only remember about 30% of a briefing the first time and may not understand the terminology used. Yes we may know what a tail rotor is and exactly where it is located but do all passengers. Do they even care? Should they care? They rely on the operator to keep them safe.
Don’t blame the victim – the operator has absolute responsibility for passenger safety.
The operator has an absolute duty of care towards paying passengers and if there are insufficient trained staff on the ground to guide passengers (who could include children) then the helicopter should shut down and stop the rotors before disembarking passengers. Briefings are not enough – people only remember about 30% of a briefing the first time and may not understand the terminology used. Yes we may know what a tail rotor is and exactly where it is located but do all passengers. Do they even care? Should they care? They rely on the operator to keep them safe.
Don’t blame the victim – the operator has absolute responsibility for passenger safety.
I find it very disappointing that so many of the comments about this accident blame the victim. Those who operate helicopters and support helicopter operations know how they work, understand that there are dangerous tail rotors which are invisible when turning and that the machine must only be approached in certain sectors. The helicopter landing pad is a dangerous and alien environment to most members of the public, and to occasional passengers, who may not even be aware that helicopters have tail rotors.
The operator has an absolute duty of care towards paying passengers and if there are insufficient trained staff on the ground to guide passengers (who could include children) then the helicopter should shut down and stop the rotors before disembarking passengers. Briefings are not enough – people only remember about 30% of a briefing the first time and may not understand the terminology used. Yes we may know what a tail rotor is and exactly where it is located but do all passengers. Do they even care? Should they care? They rely on the operator to keep them safe.
Don’t blame the victim – the operator has absolute responsibility for passenger safety.
The operator has an absolute duty of care towards paying passengers and if there are insufficient trained staff on the ground to guide passengers (who could include children) then the helicopter should shut down and stop the rotors before disembarking passengers. Briefings are not enough – people only remember about 30% of a briefing the first time and may not understand the terminology used. Yes we may know what a tail rotor is and exactly where it is located but do all passengers. Do they even care? Should they care? They rely on the operator to keep them safe.
Don’t blame the victim – the operator has absolute responsibility for passenger safety.
I find it very disappointing that so many of the comments about this accident blame the victim. Those who operate helicopters and support helicopter operations know how they work, understand that there are dangerous tail rotors which are invisible when turning and that the machine must only be approached in certain sectors. The helicopter landing pad is a dangerous and alien environment to most members of the public, and to occasional passengers, who may not even be aware that helicopters have tail rotors.
The operator has an absolute duty of care towards paying passengers and if there are insufficient trained staff on the ground to guide passengers (who could include children) then the helicopter should shut down and stop the rotors before disembarking passengers. Briefings are not enough – people only remember about 30% of a briefing the first time and may not understand the terminology used. Yes we may know what a tail rotor is and exactly where it is located but do all passengers. Do they even care? Should they care? They rely on the operator to keep them safe.
Don’t blame the victim – the operator has absolute responsibility for passenger safety.
The operator has an absolute duty of care towards paying passengers and if there are insufficient trained staff on the ground to guide passengers (who could include children) then the helicopter should shut down and stop the rotors before disembarking passengers. Briefings are not enough – people only remember about 30% of a briefing the first time and may not understand the terminology used. Yes we may know what a tail rotor is and exactly where it is located but do all passengers. Do they even care? Should they care? They rely on the operator to keep them safe.
Don’t blame the victim – the operator has absolute responsibility for passenger safety.
If no one told you not to touch a snake and you do, who are you going to blame for getting bitten?
Common sense is dead in this "I am always the victim" philosophy.
Avoid imitations
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Some of the reports say he was told to stop, but he ignored the warnings.
There does come a point when it’s not the operators fault.
Many more vigilant ground ops do exactly that on a regular basis. Some people just won’t listen or don’t understand, you have to expect that in a charter/tourist operation.
"Dolomites: British woman falls to death on hiking trip in Italy"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62318908Condolences to the family of this lady who apparently fell 30 metres to her death earlier this week during a hiking holiday in Italy. The BBC report helpfully advises that the 50 year old fell from a section of track that "had no rope for protection", and that this was the second death of a Briton in Italy in the last week, following a gentleman drowning on Lake Garda after jumping from a boat whilst trying to save his son. (Deaths of other nationalities aren't mentioned but, obviously, are of lesser significance). Unhelpfully, the BBC fails to mention the lady's education history or affluence status. Nevertheless, I think we can all conclude that Italy, like Greece, is a death-trap and that Gianni Foreigner is no less culpable that Yiannis Foreigner. I trust that the Foreign Secretary will be lobbying his Italian counterpart to have the Dolomites fenced off.
Seriously, in the case of the Greek helicopter accident, we need to await a report from the responsible agency; early speculation, prosecutions, auto-locking doors and rotors-in-cages should perhaps wait for that.
People need to be responsible for their own actions!
Coupe of observation points:
- We have a long running thread about Darwin awards where everyone freely chuckles about the unfortunate yet somehow here we are called out on our lack of decency.
- This individual was not an innocent child mauled by a maleficent rotorcraft. This individual was an adult by any and all global legal and societal standards therefore responsible for his own actions. Some common sense is to be expected. You shouldn’t need fences, flashing neon signs or babysitting to understand that certain actions are inherently dangerous. Stepping into the danger area of any mechanical device is part of that.
- Cudos to the second rotorcraft crew to spare the parents the sight.
Stepping into the danger area of any mechanical device is part of that.
I used to go to work on choppers and we received thorough, extensive briefings and we still had marshallers at each end to make sure nothing went wrong.
The operator cannot shrug his shoulders and say not my problem, the victim was at fault. It has a name. Negligence.
The guy had never flown in in a helicopter before. How is he expected to know the danger areas? Common sense does not come into it. Unless a passenger has received an extensive briefing including walking around a similar chopper with rotors stopped and had everything pointed out to him it should be assumed that he needs to be escorted at all times - because he does.
I used to go to work on choppers and we received thorough, extensive briefings and we still had marshallers at each end to make sure nothing went wrong.
The operator cannot shrug his shoulders and say not my problem, the victim was at fault. It has a name. Negligence.
I used to go to work on choppers and we received thorough, extensive briefings and we still had marshallers at each end to make sure nothing went wrong.
The operator cannot shrug his shoulders and say not my problem, the victim was at fault. It has a name. Negligence.
As has already been alluded to, different jurisdiction deal with such accidents in different ways.
Many of us could probably name a few jurisdictions where we would expect an accident like this to be handled respectfully and thoroughly by authorities, who would expect a safe operating system. A safe operating system that accounts for every form of reckless human stupidity is one that simply does not operate anything. Therefore, in most cases, competent authorities apply measures of reasonableness. Very occasionally, the correct path is to completely ban an activity.
Unfortunately, many of us could also name one or two jurisdictions where we can expect authorities to just thrash around looking for some poor sod to pin the blame on. No measure of reasonableness can be expected.
This accident provides Greece with an opportunity to give a polished performance on the international stage. Clearly, some ppruners are not hopeful for such an outcome.
Many of us could probably name a few jurisdictions where we would expect an accident like this to be handled respectfully and thoroughly by authorities, who would expect a safe operating system. A safe operating system that accounts for every form of reckless human stupidity is one that simply does not operate anything. Therefore, in most cases, competent authorities apply measures of reasonableness. Very occasionally, the correct path is to completely ban an activity.
Unfortunately, many of us could also name one or two jurisdictions where we can expect authorities to just thrash around looking for some poor sod to pin the blame on. No measure of reasonableness can be expected.
This accident provides Greece with an opportunity to give a polished performance on the international stage. Clearly, some ppruners are not hopeful for such an outcome.
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We did the night sightseeing trip in Las Vegas a few years ago. When our turn came there were two or three helicopters on the apron all doing hot swaps. Between the noise and the down drafts it was enough to persuade passengers to do exactly as they were told. Escorts in and escorts out, two per helicopter, five or six passengers.
Too short but I recommend the trip.
Too short but I recommend the trip.