Robinson crash in FL
Avoid imitations
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Never a truer word, night VFR in my time in Oz was legal in pitch black conditions, all that was needed was VFR weather as defined by regs, and keep clear of cloud, was never said how you do that in pitch black conditions, the following is the report of a fatal night VFR accident by a 16,000 hour pilot. Lessons even learnt by the regulator. **
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/566884...02%20Final.pdf
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/566884...02%20Final.pdf
I later flew a "floppy stick" public transport (police) helicopter by night, single pilot without a current instrument rating. After an accident to a police helicopter some twenty years ago, the UK CAA changed the rules such that either a second pilot was carried for such flights (impractical) or that an autopilot, i.e. a full trim/stabilisation system was installed (also impractical) and that police pilots flew a dedicated monthly instrument flying training sortie which included an ILS. That led to the ultimate demise of the AS355 for the UK police role.
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"There was that one time I found myself flying a helicopter, at night, BY MYSELF and GET THIS, NOT instrument current.
Last edited by helonorth; 13th Jan 2022 at 19:13.
Now that we are wading into boring "there I was" territory, I think we're done here for now.
'There I was, slightly below the glidepath with nothing to look at but the PAPIs'...................I've had more exciting ground runs.........
Now that we are wading into boring "there I was" territory, I think we're done here for now
§ 135.207 – VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter.
The accident report I linked to contains the following statement on page 35,
Any notion that celestial lighting and/or an apparent visible horizon are appropriate references for the control of an aircraft by night is misleading and dangerous and increases the probability of pilot disorientation
You're quite entitled to your opinion but there I was stories are one of the greatest learning tools available to an aviator, more lessons have been learnt having a drink in the bar than in a class room probably.I think this is an area the FAA needs to revisit. In Oz an attitude indicator is mandatory for night VFR, also night VFR approval is a separate rating on top of what ever license you might hold (in answer to Robbiee Robbiee) .
Indeed, the NVFR rating used to be a Grade 4 Instrument Rating way back when. Not that it's a foolproof system, but the vast areas of Oz without much ground lighting or references mandates such a minimum instrument fit for the aircraft and minimum instrument rating for the driver, airframe.
Instead of increased regulation it might be better to just try harder to get the point across that if you're not going to be able to clearly see the ground at anytime during a night flight, then just file and fly IFR.
,...and if you can't, just don't fly!
If a required artificial horizon and "night rating" didn't keep a 16,000 hour pilot from crashing, then what good would it do a low time guy in an R44?
Instead of increased regulation it might be better to just try harder to get the point across that if you're not going to be able to clearly see the ground at anytime during a night flight, then just file and fly IFR.
,...and if you can't, just don't fly!
Instead of increased regulation it might be better to just try harder to get the point across that if you're not going to be able to clearly see the ground at anytime during a night flight, then just file and fly IFR.
,...and if you can't, just don't fly!
The pilot reached 60 years of age in October 2010 and was therefore subject to additional check
requirements. Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.126 required that a commercial helicopter pilot
not undertake a commercial flight as pilot in command with passengers if the pilot was 60 years
old unless they had completed a proficiency check or flight review in the previous year. 4 The pilot
reached 60 years of age in October 2010, and his last proficiency check was conducted on
27 April 2010. Therefore, he was not permitted to undertake any commercial flights with
passengers after 27 April 2011.
requirements. Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.126 required that a commercial helicopter pilot
not undertake a commercial flight as pilot in command with passengers if the pilot was 60 years
old unless they had completed a proficiency check or flight review in the previous year. 4 The pilot
reached 60 years of age in October 2010, and his last proficiency check was conducted on
27 April 2010. Therefore, he was not permitted to undertake any commercial flights with
passengers after 27 April 2011.
Of the pilot’s total recorded flight time, 483.8 hours were conducted at night. He recorded a total of
3.4 hours night flying within the previous 12 months and about 30 hours over the last 4 years. To
carry passengers at night, the pilot was required to have conducted 3 night take-offs and landings
in the previous 90 days (see Requirements and guidance for night operations). The only recorded
night flight in the preceding 90 days was in VH-NTV on 24 June 2011. This was a 1.3 hour flight,
which consisted of a night departure from Cooma, New South Wales, and a night landing at the
helicopter’s base in Sydney. The two previous recorded night flights were 0.6 hours on
4 April 2011 and 1.5 hours on 7 September 2010.
3.4 hours night flying within the previous 12 months and about 30 hours over the last 4 years. To
carry passengers at night, the pilot was required to have conducted 3 night take-offs and landings
in the previous 90 days (see Requirements and guidance for night operations). The only recorded
night flight in the preceding 90 days was in VH-NTV on 24 June 2011. This was a 1.3 hour flight,
which consisted of a night departure from Cooma, New South Wales, and a night landing at the
helicopter’s base in Sydney. The two previous recorded night flights were 0.6 hours on
4 April 2011 and 1.5 hours on 7 September 2010.
Last edited by Winemaker; 14th Jan 2022 at 02:24. Reason: added 'with passengers'
If a required artificial horizon and "night rating" didn't keep a 16,000 hour pilot from crashing, then what good would it do a low time guy in an R44?
Instead of increased regulation it might be better to just try harder to get the point across that if you're not going to be able to clearly see the ground at anytime during a night flight, then just file and fly IFR
Instead of increased regulation it might be better to just try harder to get the point across that if you're not going to be able to clearly see the ground at anytime during a night flight, then just file and fly IFR.
,...and if you can't, just don't fly!
,...and if you can't, just don't fly!
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
especially when someone is trying to big themselves up by dissing other peoples failings when he flew with them.
'There I was, slightly below the glidepath with nothing to look at but the PAPIs'...................I've had more exciting ground runs.........
'There I was, slightly below the glidepath with nothing to look at but the PAPIs'...................I've had more exciting ground runs.........
It's really easy buzzing around a well-lit city at night, thinking what a legend at night-flying you are.
Once you leave the limits and head off to the country, with the exception of clear skies and a bright moon, there will be precious few flights which, at some point enroute, would not fall beneath minima and be considered IMC.
It quickly becomes here-be-dragons country, and all the when-we stories doesn't change that.
Once you leave the limits and head off to the country, with the exception of clear skies and a bright moon, there will be precious few flights which, at some point enroute, would not fall beneath minima and be considered IMC.
It quickly becomes here-be-dragons country, and all the when-we stories doesn't change that.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
especially when someone is trying to big themselves up by dissing other peoples failings when he flew with them.
'There I was, slightly below the glidepath with nothing to look at but the PAPIs'...................I've had more exciting ground runs.........
'There I was, slightly below the glidepath with nothing to look at but the PAPIs'...................I've had more exciting ground runs.........
Oh give it up, crab. You are just angry with me for daring to contradict your assertion that the vast majority of night flight is tantamount to IFR.
Ever thought you might be part of the problem?
Flight Safety is easily discounted or dismissed if you have a cavalier attitude to rules and regs because you think you are much better than the other guys and girls. Personal freedoms don't trump safety in aviation.
Ground runs can be quite exciting - ask the RNoAF!
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BR: we can all cite specific circumstances that support our own individual arguments. I'm not arguing that there aren't conditions at night that are tantamount to IFR. There certainly are. I'm only arguing that these do not form the preponderance of such operations everywhere, nor do the fact they exist make all night flying like that. I've already gotten into "trouble" for citing personal experience (where certain others have not...) so I won't go there again.
I think it comes down to the usual argument of "What is the right kind of flying?", or "What is the right way of doing it?" Those with certain backgrounds and experience, particularly in highly complex military environments, simply can't fathom operating at night except in a certain way. Meanwhile, others, some with many thousands of hours (that's not me, to be clear) in "floppy stick" (that's a great term!), non-IFR certified equipment, don't see any problem with tackling it as a true VFR operation. And of course the line gets a bit blurry, since most helicopters are gyro-equipped at some level. No doubt there is some reliance on that, correct or incorrect, legal or not legal.
All I'm saying is that the situation is not black and white, if you'll pardon the pun. Differences in culture, training, doctrine, experience and environment make it so that some people are quite comfortable in the dark VFR, others not so much without making it a de facto IFR flight. Those who tend towards the latter often carry that over into the expression that any such thing as night VFR should be outlawed and that those who profess any sort comfort in a night VFR environment are all cowboys who are ultimately doomed. And indeed this has lead to restrictions on night VFR flight in some places, but not the US, not yet, anyway.
I think it comes down to the usual argument of "What is the right kind of flying?", or "What is the right way of doing it?" Those with certain backgrounds and experience, particularly in highly complex military environments, simply can't fathom operating at night except in a certain way. Meanwhile, others, some with many thousands of hours (that's not me, to be clear) in "floppy stick" (that's a great term!), non-IFR certified equipment, don't see any problem with tackling it as a true VFR operation. And of course the line gets a bit blurry, since most helicopters are gyro-equipped at some level. No doubt there is some reliance on that, correct or incorrect, legal or not legal.
All I'm saying is that the situation is not black and white, if you'll pardon the pun. Differences in culture, training, doctrine, experience and environment make it so that some people are quite comfortable in the dark VFR, others not so much without making it a de facto IFR flight. Those who tend towards the latter often carry that over into the expression that any such thing as night VFR should be outlawed and that those who profess any sort comfort in a night VFR environment are all cowboys who are ultimately doomed. And indeed this has lead to restrictions on night VFR flight in some places, but not the US, not yet, anyway.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
some very experienced people here seem to agree with me.
Ever thought you might be part of the problem?
Flight Safety is easily discounted or dismissed if you have a cavalier attitude to rules and regs because you think you are much better than the other guys and girls. Personal freedoms don't trump safety in aviation.
And there are others of equal experience who posted otherwise.
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