Robinson crash in FL
The trouble is that you can't see the ground, you can only see a few lights (in a poorly lit area) and in order to correctly maintain the aircraft attitude with no AI, you need a visual horizon.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
The trouble is that you can't see the ground, you can only see a few lights (in a poorly lit area) and in order to correctly maintain the aircraft attitude with no AI, you need a visual horizon.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Does anything in FAA land or the RFM specify the need for an artificial horizon or attitude indicator to be fitted for night flight in a Robbie?
No AI, limited experience and a night flight over poorly lit terrain that ends in a high speed CFIT - that has disorientation and LOC written all over it but until there is a full investigation we won't know if there were medical issues with the pilot or any catastrophic failure of the aircraft.
Don't have the FAA regs in hand, but here in Canada aircraft are required in night to have an AH & DG.
Theoretically that should be enough to fly in black holes or inadvertent cloud encounters. But it seems the required hood time is done during the day.
A modest proposal: Required night training should include a night flight under the hood of at least 50 miles to or from a rural airport.
As an FW pilot, my impression from various accident reports is that RW control can deteriorate much more quickly at night than in FW.
It's not just the newly minted pilots that come to grief at. The accident record includes commercial operators.
TSB Canada Recommendation A16-08
Unfortunately the proposed amendment to the regulations CARAC NPA 2021-007 is heavily biased to NVIS. The cure could be worse than the disease, but if nobody flies at night as a result of these proposed regulations, nobody will crash at night.
Theoretically that should be enough to fly in black holes or inadvertent cloud encounters. But it seems the required hood time is done during the day.
A modest proposal: Required night training should include a night flight under the hood of at least 50 miles to or from a rural airport.
As an FW pilot, my impression from various accident reports is that RW control can deteriorate much more quickly at night than in FW.
It's not just the newly minted pilots that come to grief at. The accident record includes commercial operators.
TSB Canada Recommendation A16-08
Unfortunately the proposed amendment to the regulations CARAC NPA 2021-007 is heavily biased to NVIS. The cure could be worse than the disease, but if nobody flies at night as a result of these proposed regulations, nobody will crash at night.
Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 9th Jan 2022 at 19:55.
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There's no evidence that there was no AI in that R44. Indeed, most are delivered with an AI.
Not saying it would have helped in this case.
I have an AI in my R44. It is occasionally helpful at night, and for those very hazy but otherwise legal VFR days.
Not saying it would have helped in this case.
I have an AI in my R44. It is occasionally helpful at night, and for those very hazy but otherwise legal VFR days.
AFAIK, the only surface visibility requirement in the FARs is a part 135 regulation (excepting student and sport pilots), 135.207, VFR: Helicopter Surface Reference Requirements.
§ 135.207 – VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter
First of all this was a (R-22 )so standard equipment for a R-44 is irrelevant.
(Disregard the above I was wrong about the type)
Second of all this was a flight conducted under Part 91 (owner operated) so any 135 regulations are equally irrelevant.
91.205(c) does not require an artificial horizon for night flying.
Minimum requirements are exactly what the word says, minimum.
It doesn’t mention anywhere that this implies safe for all experience levels or at any experience level.
You don’t overnight become a year older when you celebrate your birthday, you’re just a single day older.
You don’t overnight become an experienced pilot because you pass a skill test or check ride.
You simply gain one more day of experience and no longer legally required to be supervised by an instructor. That’s all that piece of paper means.
(Disregard the above I was wrong about the type)
Second of all this was a flight conducted under Part 91 (owner operated) so any 135 regulations are equally irrelevant.
91.205(c) does not require an artificial horizon for night flying.
Minimum requirements are exactly what the word says, minimum.
It doesn’t mention anywhere that this implies safe for all experience levels or at any experience level.
You don’t overnight become a year older when you celebrate your birthday, you’re just a single day older.
You don’t overnight become an experienced pilot because you pass a skill test or check ride.
You simply gain one more day of experience and no longer legally required to be supervised by an instructor. That’s all that piece of paper means.
Last edited by B2N2; 10th Jan 2022 at 00:18.
91.205 specifies exactly which instruments are required.
Previous post corrected as I was wrong about the type. My brain thought Robinson and my fingers typed 22
According to FAA records the 2018 R44 II helicopter was bought 26 April 2021 with a Helicopter add on to his certificate June 2021.
I am therefore assuming that all his rotor craft experience or the majority of it was on his own helicopter.
According to FlightAware they were airborne for two minutes.
I am therefore assuming that all his rotor craft experience or the majority of it was on his own helicopter.
According to FlightAware they were airborne for two minutes.
This has nothing to do with instruments and everything to do with the RFM requirement that orientation during night flight must be maintained by visual reference to ground objects. There is no getting around that whatever instruments were fitted.
Meaningful? No
Orientation during night flight must be maintained by visual reference to ground objects illuminated solely by lights on the ground
or
adequate celestial illumination.
Yep. If I might dare to speculate. If the pilot did what the RFM required, and maintained orientation during night flight by visual reference to ground objects, presumably he would have arrived safely at destination and we wouldn't be having this discussion. It matters not whether an AH was fitted, he had to be able to see sufficient lights on ground, or have enough celestial illumination to see the ground, to get a proper sense of his orientation. Because without orientation you invariably end up flying into the ground, whether that be day or night.
Fully agree, however, you should say that in general as a low time private pilot in an unstabilized VFR-only helicopter. It’s not nice to leave your family behind either! RIP.