Robinson crash in FL

[zambonidriver]

To get back to the case at hand what could explain such an utterly violent impact? This seems to be a very high energy CFIT

[aa777888]

It probably was not "controlled". Could be pilot loss of control due to spatial disorientation. Could be a catastrophic mechanical failure of some sort.

[rotorspeed]

I think most here would think it more likely that the failure in this tragic accident will be with the pilot, not the aircraft. Clearly we don't know the cause, but I do find this sort of official comment maddening:

"the LCSO reported the aircraft experienced an undetermined failure causing the crash"

It is unfairly damaging to the reputation of helicopters, Robinson and even maintenance organisations when such ignorant comments are made - there is no way that could yet be known. And course it inevitably gets repeated in other media.

[megan]

the LCSO reported the aircraft experienced an undetermined failure causing the crash

Personally I have no problem with the statement, the undetermined failure being either mechanical or pilot, as yet we don't know.

[Robbiee]

[quote] But, certainly, night off-airport op's are next level stuff. I'd be interested to know if anyone here ever received formal training in that outside of the military or public safety/HEMS.[\quote]

Would you really feel comfortable doing off airport night landing training with a cfi who's just a wet behind the ears kid who's only real world experience is the occasional photo flight, and who's only night experience is maybe ten more hours of sitting as a pax while his students do their ten trips around the pattern and one short xc to another (lighted and paved) airport?

[FH1100 Pilot]

Although I don't usually, I have to agree with aa777888 here: The training that most nascent helicopter pilots receive regarding night, off-airport, confined-area ops is deplorable. And that should change. I'm civilian-trained. It wasn't until I started flying charters - with my huge "1,000" hours (wink-wink) that I got to do my first ones. The fact that the company trusted me not to crash and kill some "very important people" seems insane now. But that was then (1982). Fortunately, I had good instructors in the late 1970's when I was coming up - guys who were recently back from Viet Nam. Those guys really knew how to fly. What they taught me obviously saved my life many times over the years.

And so, yeah, if you're going to go paved runway to paved runway... then use an airplane. But if you're going to use a helicopter to do things that helicopters do, then you should get the necessary training. Unfortunately, it is not currently provided.

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme

I don’t think he woke up that morning and thought I’m going to take my family on a bad trip

He decided to take his family.

That’s all there is to it.

It’s my understanding that Frank(?) Robinson never intended the R-22 to be a trainer or a machine for an inexperienced PPL holder.
https://www.flightglobal.com/nothing.../17067.article
The addition of a rotorcraft/helicopter rating requires :

) Except as provided in § 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes -

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

That is all dual training and likely the only night experience in a helicopter.
SEL night training requirement added totals 6 hrs night experience over two different categories.
Currently sunset in Florida is at 17:46 EST.
Therefore 20:30 EST is dark especially with no clouds.
Back to my earlier statement: He decided to attempt the flight and take with him the people that trusted his skills the most, his own family.

[ShyTorque]

I’ve flown helicopters for a living since 1979 (with a few years of light fixed wing, too) and was trained from very early on to fly in IMC on “floppy stick” helicopters. I have (infrequently) flown some of my family, including in IMC on a couple of occasions…..but never in an unstabilised single.

I also ride motorcycles and have been doing so since long before learning to fly, having first learned to ride well over fifty years ago. I’ve always been more careful when carrying a pillion passenger. If I’ve not ridden for a while, I’d never take a passenger until I’ve gone out solo for a while, particularly when changing between my two bikes with foot controls on the opposite side.

Maybe being cautious is why I’m still here and have never injured a passenger, either flying or biking.

I’ve known both pilots and bike riders who weren’t so cautious and considered themselves highly expert but are no longer with us..

[[email protected]]

Exactly Shy and it is that caution that keeps most of us alive - it is the 'entitled' brigade who have paid their money for a licence that allows them to 'do what they want' in their minds who don't seem to understand how far down the experience tree they really are.

If more training was mandated then people would be up in arms at the prohibitive cost of getting a helicopter licence and protesting about personal freedoms being restricted etc etc.

Maybe we just have to accept that stupid is as stupid does and they will keep killing themselves in the same ways - we just just have to hope they don't crash into us!

[aa777888]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Would you really feel comfortable doing off airport night landing training with a cfi who's just a wet behind the ears kid who's only real world experience is the occasional photo flight, and who's only night experience is maybe ten more hours of sitting as a pax while his students do their ten trips around the pattern and one short xc to another (lighted and paved) airport?

Yes, that is very much a large part of the problem. I had plenty more fixed wing night hours then my first helicopter instructor had any sort of night hours. When planning my night XC he was horrified of my first choice, an easy hop over the countryside into a nice, mid-sized, well lighted airport that I had been to many times in the dark, even as a fixed wing student. "Too dark that way" he said. That was my first inkling of the training shortfalls I would experience. He had us going a much longer distance over an urban landscape that was brilliantly lit.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by aa777888

Yes, that is very much a large part of the problem. I had plenty more fixed wing night hours then my first helicopter instructor had any sort of night hours. When planning my night XC he was horrified of my first choice, an easy hop over the countryside into a nice, mid-sized, well lighted airport that I had been to many times in the dark, even as a fixed wing student. "Too dark that way" he said. That was my first inkling of the training shortfalls I would experience. He had us going a much longer distance over an urban landscape that was brilliantly lit.

I've got over 350 night hours (almost all over a city in an R22) and I still avoid rural America like the plague,...and fly longer to stay over more lighted areas.

Then again my first night flight was over the open desert between Phoenix and Tuscon with nothing but the lights of a skinny little road 1,500' below. Followed by an even longer one a couple nights later to Long Beach. That was enough to cure me of any desire to fly xc over nothing at night in anything but a Southwest airliner.

Then I hear about a school I went to flying an R44 over the open ocean between Hawaiian Islands at night and think, "those guys are nuts!"

Maybe I'd feel differently if I'd had instructors with real helicopter experience teaching me?

Then again I also think, "Well, they taught me how to fly at night. They taught me how to land off airport. If I can't put those two together, then maybe I'm not fit to be a pilot?"

[gulliBell]

Originally Posted by zambonidriver

To get back to the case at hand what could explain such an utterly violent impact? This seems to be a very high energy CFIT

Being upside down, or steep nose down at impact.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Then I hear about a school I went to flying an R44 over the open ocean between Hawaiian Islands at night and think, "those guys are nuts!"

It is actually easier at night. Back in the 90's I flew between Kauai and Oahu once at night and back during daylight hours. One cannot see your destination during the day, but at night you can see the glow of Oahu..... This was in an Astar with only a compass for navigation....no GPS etc....

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by Gordy

It is actually easier at night. Back in the 90's I flew between Kauai and Oahu once at night and back during daylight hours. One cannot see your destination during the day, but at night you can see the glow of Oahu..... This was in an Astar with only a compass for navigation....no GPS etc....

One night (many moonless nights ago) I was flying my little R22 across the SF Bay from San Carlos to Hayward. Both were reporting "clear below 12,000" and yeah the lights of the East Bay made for a very nice clear target to aim for (didn't even have to turn on my gps ).

Then at one point somwhere near the middle I got to experience the most trouser filling two seconds of my life (at that point) when those lights disappeared and the windshield went black. Seems I had passed through a wisp of a cloud.

So yeah, I guess it is easier at night,...to go right into a cloud you didn't know was there!

For what its worth, I have flown over the open ocean during the day when I couldn't see any land in any direction (due to how low I was flying to try and avoid a much stiffer headwind higher up). That was in an R22 Mariner (with a gps so old all I had was a number to follow) and I'll take that over not being able to see the clouds in my path any day of the week!

[Hot and Hi]

Originally Posted by thechopper

A responsible pilot should not apply different standards whether he's carrying family or rolls of barbed wire.
Same is valid for personal minima.
But all this comes with personal experience and this involves a lot of flying under supervision be this direct or indirect.

That is incorrect and untenable.

There are many legally permissible missions that equally legally require to be done without pax. Eg, training, re-familiarization, certain DG ops.

This is (i) about avoiding to unnecessarily expose pax to the necessary risk of that mission, and (ii) simply also about the distraction and (real or perceived) pressure stemming from the presence of pax.

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by zambonidriver

To get back to the case at hand what could explain such an utterly violent impact? This seems to be a very high energy CFIT

Probably start with the issues the R22 is known for then determine which one is the most probable based on empirical evidence.
From my very limited knowledge about helicopters I understand there is an issue which is more prevalent with fixed wing pilots that transition to helicopter then helicopter only trained pilots.
Abrupt corrections using the cyclic (?) rather then the collective. Using the cyclic like you would a fixed wing yoke or stick as far as pitch control.
Somebody please correct me and explain it the right way.

[gulliBell]

Originally Posted by B2N2

...Somebody please correct me and explain it the right way.

This was a recently minted private rotorcraft pilot who, on the face of it, has taken off on a dark night off-airport in his own helicopter with his family on board. My hunch is as soon as he was surrounded in darkness he was instantly overcome by a situation completely outside his proficiency level, panicked and lost control of a serviceable helicopter shortly thereafter. And possibly became inverted or crashed nose first at high speed resulting in the total destruction of the helicopter, and, needlessly, themselves.

[[email protected]]

Does anything in FAA land or the RFM specify the need for an artificial horizon or attitude indicator to be fitted for night flight in a Robbie?

Night VFR is a misnomer, especially over poorly lit ground or sea. You might be able to see other aircraft but probably can't see any ground definition and the visual horizon can be very difficult to define.

[nickp]

If I remember rightly an artificial horizon is a requirement for night flying in the UK.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Does anything in FAA land or the RFM specify the need for an artificial horizon or attitude indicator to be fitted for night flight in a Robbie?

Night VFR is a misnomer, especially over poorly lit ground or sea. You might be able to see other aircraft but probably can't see any ground definition and the visual horizon can be very difficult to define.

Nope, but you are required to be able to see the ground, either by lights on the ground, or adequate celestial illumination.

Most R44's I've flown though, have had one installed, and (to my surprise) the last R22 I flew even had a glass one, with a glass HSI below it.