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RAF announces Puma Replacement plan

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RAF announces Puma Replacement plan

Old 25th Aug 2023, 21:50
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Originally Posted by pba_target
I'd say it's a good opportunity to play a little waiting game then break the Yeovil stranglehold if they've got enough orders of WC/me from elsewhere. Get Sikorsky in with some actual battlefield helicopters
Why should the boots on the ground and in the air have to wait because some politicians and uniformed desk jockeys try and play a game with an industry they know don't really understand, or have a terrible reputation for playing poorly at.

Somebody just needs to get a grip and get on with it. "The only thing worse than a bad decision, is no decision".
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 07:45
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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Those politicians and desk jockeys have been playing this game for all the time I have been flying and will probably continue to do so because there isn't the money to have what we want - or so they keep telling us..

We wanted Blackhawk back in the 80's and we're still waiting.
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 08:50
  #423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Those politicians and desk jockeys have been playing this game for all the time I have been flying and will probably continue to do so because there isn't the money to have what we want - or so they keep telling us..

We wanted Blackhawk back in the 80's and we're still waiting.
"We" never get asked though.

The people making procurement decisions (who get shuffled around every couple of years) likely will never operate in or with the kit they are on the project teams for. The only people that suffer are the end users. Defence industry sounds like a great place to work though from all the career fairs (circuses) I've been to!
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 09:23
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But if 'we' were asked and came up with a different solution, we'd just be told we didn't understand the 'bigger picture' and the senior officers who start as pilots and then forget what their job used to be will just say yes to the VSOs and politicians.
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 09:32
  #425 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
But if 'we' were asked and came up with a different solution, we'd just be told we didn't understand the 'bigger picture' and the senior officers who start as pilots and then forget what their job used to be will just say yes to the VSOs and politicians.
Followed by a continuous attitude survey with results like these...


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Old 26th Aug 2023, 13:59
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
We wanted Blackhawk back in the 80's and we're still waiting.
I can remember G RRTM flying at Farnborough but then it disappeared.
I thought the intention was to set up a production run at Yeovil to produce WS70s with the possibility of exports to Europe.
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 14:39
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Iím always cynical when talking about how any govt makes decisions when so many angles are considered (valid or not), but maybe if Australia (hopefully) with good success with H-60M, it will help push UK more in that direction?

Regarding the Australian Blackhawks, does anyone know what Australian specific modifications (if any) were incorporated in their order? I assume since the first aircraft have already arrived that they are pretty close to standard US Army spec, it seems like if they had tried to re-invent the wheel with their order the timeline would have been much longer.

As it stands currently all H-60M in Army spec come hoist/wench, external stores and extended range fuel capable, with additional mission equipment available in kit form, so pretty much a turn key solution for most situations it would seem, and Iím sure the domestic Australian aerospace industry is more than capable tackling any modifications needed in future.

FltMech


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Old 26th Aug 2023, 14:55
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Nice for them to spec convivial company!
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 17:11
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🤣 good catch! *Winch* I meant to say. And to think we fear AI taking over the worldÖ

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Old 27th Aug 2023, 13:44
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Originally Posted by chevvron
I can remember G RRTM flying at Farnborough but then it disappeared.
I thought the intention was to set up a production run at Yeovil to produce WS70s with the possibility of exports to Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_affair
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Old 27th Aug 2023, 14:34
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A little searching around shows G-RRTM came back to
the states using registrations N3124B, N70C and N60FH, looks like it was deregistered in 2014 when Brainerd/Firehawk helicopters had it.

I would assume itís still around but not in use as Brainerd has a lot of H-60s in storage.

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Old 11th Sep 2023, 22:24
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Well it looks like the Puma replacement may well have been kicked down the road for another three years.

The Ministry of Defence has released details regarding the extension of a contract with Airbus Helicopters UK Ltd.

This comes from a recent tender notice, labelled as the “Puma HC2 Follow-On Support Arrangement PP3 CF VTN”.

The contract specifically pertains to support for the Puma Mk2 helicopter. The current agreement will be extended “for a period of up to three years – 31 March 2028”. This deal, valued at a substantial £320 million, covers services from 1 April 2025 to 31 March 2028.
So that is $400,320,000.00 at the exchange rate at the moment

Cost of a Blackhawk

It's a four-blade twin-engine, medium-lift utility military helicopter that a popular company Sikorsky manufactures for the United States Army. The one unit costs around $3 to $26 million depending on the variant because each variant has its pros and cons.
So for the three year extension you could have bought 15 of the expensive Blackhawk airframes without support etc..

Stupid isn’t it, no wonder this country is going down the tubes when they make decisions like this!


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airb...-mod-contract/


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Sep 2023 at 22:43.
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Old 11th Sep 2023, 23:40
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Nutty, you must remember `we` don`t know the real `big picture`,which has changed again; I`m sure Rishi promised more `foreign aid` to India,in addition to what we already give them ,in the hope of a `big deal`,and then there are all the schools,hospitals,council buildings suffering from `stoneworm`*,which have to be repaired,as well as some prisons....

`stoneworm`*..reference for those who remember `Last of the Summer Wine`....Howard,etc...
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 02:54
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Originally Posted by 60FltMech
Iím always cynical when talking about how any govt makes decisions when so many angles are considered (valid or not), but maybe if Australia (hopefully) with good success with H-60M, it will help push UK more in that direction?

Regarding the Australian Blackhawks, does anyone know what Australian specific modifications (if any) were incorporated in their order? I assume since the first aircraft have already arrived that they are pretty close to standard US Army spec, it seems like if they had tried to re-invent the wheel with their order the timeline would have been much longer.

As it stands currently all H-60M in Army spec come hoist/wench, external stores and extended range fuel capable, with additional mission equipment available in kit form, so pretty much a turn key solution for most situations it would seem, and Iím sure the domestic Australian aerospace industry is more than capable tackling any modifications needed in future.

FltMech
The first 3 new UH-60M's have arrived , these are the first of 7 fast tracked from US orders to get the Specops role/CT back on line , the main order of the remaining 33 will start delivery in late 24, the first 7 are std US Army spec the remaining 33 with come with Radar, FLIR, ESSS and tanks, Robertson internal tanks and various weapons fits as well as a full EW package , all these mods are fitted in one or other 60 series in US service unlike the S-70A-9's these UH-60M's are compatible with US Army supply system, after the delivery of the last machine the first 7 will be brought up to the std spec of the other 33.
The CH-47F in Aust service are compatible with US Army versions already and tied into the US supply train , only differences being extra comms gear and rotor brake fit, the upcoming AH-64's will be the same with minimal Austalian extras added and once again tied into the US Army supply train.
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 12:18
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It's a four-blade twin-engine, medium-lift utility military helicopter that a popular company Sikorsky manufactures for the United States Army. The one unit costs around $3 to $26 million depending on the variant because each variant has its pros and cons.
I don't know the source of this quote, but it's clearly a long way off the mark!
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 13:32
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212 man, from here

https://executiveflyers.com/how-much...licopter-cost/
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 13:43
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
They are just using a random number generator I think! A civilian S-92 is north of 30 million USD......
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 14:00
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Lockheed Martin throwing their hats in the ring with a promise of 40% of all Black Hawk production to be in the UK with some export rights. Would be mad not to.

Lockheed Martin Black Hawk for UK medium fleet
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 15:22
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Originally Posted by 212man
They are just using a random number generator I think! A civilian S-92 is north of 30 million USD......
300ish S92A built, 5000ish BH built, plus I am pretty sure Uncle Sam picked up much of the R&D costs for the BH. And it works, no working around eurotrash 'concepts' that don't deliver, or supply chains dependent on the French or Italians.
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Old 12th Sep 2023, 16:44
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat
300ish S92A built, 5000ish BH built, plus I am pretty sure Uncle Sam picked up much of the R&D costs for the BH. And it works, no working around eurotrash 'concepts' that don't deliver, or supply chains dependent on the French or Italians.
I am not contradicting anything you're saying, but that doesn't mean you can pick up a Black Hawk for the prices being quoted! The S92 cost is literally for just an airframe - any military BH procurement will include additional through life costs that will escalate the apparent unit costs. This report shows the US assuming a unit cost for H-60s of 53 million USD in 2018 dollars! (Page 18)
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