RAF announces Puma Replacement plan
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From: EGDC
But if 'we' were asked and came up with a different solution, we'd just be told we didn't understand the 'bigger picture' and the senior officers who start as pilots and then forget what their job used to be will just say yes to the VSOs and politicians.
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From: Alles Über
Originally Posted by [email protected]
But if 'we' were asked and came up with a different solution, we'd just be told we didn't understand the 'bigger picture' and the senior officers who start as pilots and then forget what their job used to be will just say yes to the VSOs and politicians.
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From: Wildest Surrey
Originally Posted by [email protected]
We wanted Blackhawk back in the 80's and we're still waiting.
I thought the intention was to set up a production run at Yeovil to produce WS70s with the possibility of exports to Europe.
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From: Southern United States
Im always cynical when talking about how any govt makes decisions when so many angles are considered (valid or not), but maybe if Australia (hopefully) with good success with H-60M, it will help push UK more in that direction?
Regarding the Australian Blackhawks, does anyone know what Australian specific modifications (if any) were incorporated in their order? I assume since the first aircraft have already arrived that they are pretty close to standard US Army spec, it seems like if they had tried to re-invent the wheel with their order the timeline would have been much longer.
As it stands currently all H-60M in Army spec come hoist/wench, external stores and extended range fuel capable, with additional mission equipment available in kit form, so pretty much a turn key solution for most situations it would seem, and Im sure the domestic Australian aerospace industry is more than capable tackling any modifications needed in future.
FltMech
Regarding the Australian Blackhawks, does anyone know what Australian specific modifications (if any) were incorporated in their order? I assume since the first aircraft have already arrived that they are pretty close to standard US Army spec, it seems like if they had tried to re-invent the wheel with their order the timeline would have been much longer.
As it stands currently all H-60M in Army spec come hoist/wench, external stores and extended range fuel capable, with additional mission equipment available in kit form, so pretty much a turn key solution for most situations it would seem, and Im sure the domestic Australian aerospace industry is more than capable tackling any modifications needed in future.
FltMech
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From: Den Haag
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From: Southern United States
A little searching around shows G-RRTM came back to
the states using registrations N3124B, N70C and N60FH, looks like it was deregistered in 2014 when Brainerd/Firehawk helicopters had it.
I would assume its still around but not in use as Brainerd has a lot of H-60s in storage.
FltMech
the states using registrations N3124B, N70C and N60FH, looks like it was deregistered in 2014 when Brainerd/Firehawk helicopters had it.
I would assume its still around but not in use as Brainerd has a lot of H-60s in storage.
FltMech
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Well it looks like the Puma replacement may well have been kicked down the road for another three years.
The contract specifically pertains to support for the Puma Mk2 helicopter. The current agreement will be extended “for a period of up to three years – 31 March 2028”. This deal, valued at a substantial £320 million, covers services from 1 April 2025 to 31 March 2028.
So that is $400,320,000.00 at the exchange rate at the moment
Cost of a Blackhawk
So for the three year extension you could have bought 15 of the expensive Blackhawk airframes without support etc..
Stupid isn’t it, no wonder this country is going down the tubes when they make decisions like this!
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airb...-mod-contract/
..
The Ministry of Defence has released details regarding the extension of a contract with Airbus Helicopters UK Ltd.
This comes from a recent tender notice, labelled as the “Puma HC2 Follow-On Support Arrangement PP3 CF VTN”.The contract specifically pertains to support for the Puma Mk2 helicopter. The current agreement will be extended “for a period of up to three years – 31 March 2028”. This deal, valued at a substantial £320 million, covers services from 1 April 2025 to 31 March 2028.
Cost of a Blackhawk
It's a four-blade twin-engine, medium-lift utility military helicopter that a popular company Sikorsky manufactures for the United States Army. The one unit costs around $3 to $26 million depending on the variant because each variant has its pros and cons.
Stupid isn’t it, no wonder this country is going down the tubes when they make decisions like this!
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airb...-mod-contract/
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th September 2023 at 21:43.
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From: east ESSEX
Nutty, you must remember `we` don`t know the real `big picture`,which has changed again; I`m sure Rishi promised more `foreign aid` to India,in addition to what we already give them ,in the hope of a `big deal`,and then there are all the schools,hospitals,council buildings suffering from `stoneworm`*,which have to be repaired,as well as some prisons....
`stoneworm`*..reference for those who remember `Last of the Summer Wine`....Howard,etc...
`stoneworm`*..reference for those who remember `Last of the Summer Wine`....Howard,etc...
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From: Australia
Im always cynical when talking about how any govt makes decisions when so many angles are considered (valid or not), but maybe if Australia (hopefully) with good success with H-60M, it will help push UK more in that direction?
Regarding the Australian Blackhawks, does anyone know what Australian specific modifications (if any) were incorporated in their order? I assume since the first aircraft have already arrived that they are pretty close to standard US Army spec, it seems like if they had tried to re-invent the wheel with their order the timeline would have been much longer.
As it stands currently all H-60M in Army spec come hoist/wench, external stores and extended range fuel capable, with additional mission equipment available in kit form, so pretty much a turn key solution for most situations it would seem, and Im sure the domestic Australian aerospace industry is more than capable tackling any modifications needed in future.
FltMech
Regarding the Australian Blackhawks, does anyone know what Australian specific modifications (if any) were incorporated in their order? I assume since the first aircraft have already arrived that they are pretty close to standard US Army spec, it seems like if they had tried to re-invent the wheel with their order the timeline would have been much longer.
As it stands currently all H-60M in Army spec come hoist/wench, external stores and extended range fuel capable, with additional mission equipment available in kit form, so pretty much a turn key solution for most situations it would seem, and Im sure the domestic Australian aerospace industry is more than capable tackling any modifications needed in future.
FltMech
The CH-47F in Aust service are compatible with US Army versions already and tied into the US supply train , only differences being extra comms gear and rotor brake fit, the upcoming AH-64's will be the same with minimal Austalian extras added and once again tied into the US Army supply train.
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From: Den Haag
It's a four-blade twin-engine, medium-lift utility military helicopter that a popular company Sikorsky manufactures for the United States Army. The one unit costs around $3 to $26 million depending on the variant because each variant has its pros and cons.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
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From: Den Haag
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From: Underground
Lockheed Martin throwing their hats in the ring with a promise of 40% of all Black Hawk production to be in the UK with some export rights. Would be mad not to.
Lockheed Martin Black Hawk for UK medium fleet
Lockheed Martin Black Hawk for UK medium fleet
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From: GMT
300ish S92A built, 5000ish BH built, plus I am pretty sure Uncle Sam picked up much of the R&D costs for the BH. And it works, no working around eurotrash 'concepts' that don't deliver, or supply chains dependent on the French or Italians.
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From: Den Haag
I am not contradicting anything you're saying, but that doesn't mean you can pick up a Black Hawk for the prices being quoted! The S92 cost is literally for just an airframe - any military BH procurement will include additional through life costs that will escalate the apparent unit costs. This report shows the US assuming a unit cost for H-60s of 53 million USD in 2018 dollars! (Page 18)
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From: GMT
I am not disagreeing with you either (I think we are in violent agreement)
My point being the headline cost (per airframe) is equitable with what AH and AW are quoting, and then there is a through life cost. Aside from the BH being an established workhorse and known performer, I personally would not pin my supply chain on Macron not having a tantrum over fishing/electricity/not getting Anne Widdecombes phone number and slowing supply side, or some EU future fudge on border controls. Yes, AH and AW say they will produce it all in the UK, as do LM, and I don't believe any of them. However, I do believe in something arriving from the US in a time of crisis, rather than Europe.
My point being the headline cost (per airframe) is equitable with what AH and AW are quoting, and then there is a through life cost. Aside from the BH being an established workhorse and known performer, I personally would not pin my supply chain on Macron not having a tantrum over fishing/electricity/not getting Anne Widdecombes phone number and slowing supply side, or some EU future fudge on border controls. Yes, AH and AW say they will produce it all in the UK, as do LM, and I don't believe any of them. However, I do believe in something arriving from the US in a time of crisis, rather than Europe.
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From: Lost again...
I am not disagreeing with you either (I think we are in violent agreement)
My point being the headline cost (per airframe) is equitable with what AH and AW are quoting, and then there is a through life cost. Aside from the BH being an established workhorse and known performer, I personally would not pin my supply chain on Macron not having a tantrum over fishing/electricity/not getting Anne Widdecombes phone number and slowing supply side, or some EU future fudge on border controls. Yes, AH and AW say they will produce it all in the UK, as do LM, and I don't believe any of them. However, I do believe in something arriving from the US in a time of crisis, rather than Europe.
My point being the headline cost (per airframe) is equitable with what AH and AW are quoting, and then there is a through life cost. Aside from the BH being an established workhorse and known performer, I personally would not pin my supply chain on Macron not having a tantrum over fishing/electricity/not getting Anne Widdecombes phone number and slowing supply side, or some EU future fudge on border controls. Yes, AH and AW say they will produce it all in the UK, as do LM, and I don't believe any of them. However, I do believe in something arriving from the US in a time of crisis, rather than Europe.
Even if Macron is our best buddy and we pay Anne Widecombe to jump out of his birthday cake in a white dress and blonde wig to sing Appy Birthday Monsieur President (Got that image in your head now haven't you! ;-) AH are still utterly cr@p in terms of support and servicing. I suppose the one thing to be said is that if Vlad does start moving West then they'll all run over here again and we might actually be able to get some work out of them!
Thread Starter
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From: Beyond the black stump!
Very interesting to see Standard Aero and assumedly their expansive Fleetlands facility as the assembly location. Standard Aero is owned by The Carlyle Group - if you're not familiar wth who they are, you might need to do some Googling! I did have to laugh at the final sentence.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry...r-pitch-to-uk/
Sep 12, 11:27 AMLONDON — Lockheed Martin’s U.K. subsidiary unveiled a local industry team, capped by aircraft assembly lead StandardAero, to support its Black Hawk-based bid for the British military’sNew Medium Helicopterprogram.The roster of local companies is meant to put a British face on a U.S. military product, with the head of Lockheed Martin UK, Paul Livingston, saying the aim is to have 40% of the prospective program realized in Britain.
The offer responds to a requirement for a new helicopter type, envisaged by the U.K. government to cost more than £800 million (U.S. $1 billion), that will replace four variants that have been in service for decades.
Lockheed is the last of three contenders to announce its industrial lineup for the much-delayed New Medium Helicopter program. Alongside rival bidders Airbus and Leonardo, the U.S.-based company is still awaiting the release of an invitation to negotiate for up to 44 helicopters.
In the meantime, the three contenders have wasted no time dissing their rivals’ industrial offers while talking up the U.K. credentials of their own, with local jobs and an enduring domestic helicopter-making capability becoming key discriminators in their efforts to woo the Defence Ministry.
Italian company Leonardo, which has made helicopters in the U.K. for decades, recently launched a campaign supporting its AW149 bid by labelling its Yeovil factory where the rotorcraft would be built as the “Home of British Helicopter.” And French firm Airbus is proposing to assemble its H175M at its commercial jet wing factory in North Wales.
With a general election expected next year, who wins the industrial argument might go a long way toward deciding who secures the order.
According to Livingston, a win for Lockheed would translate into 600 new, high-skilled jobs in Britain, plus assured work for decades after the delivery of all helicopters. He pointed to the case of the Lockheed-made F-35 jet, parts of which are made in the U.K., as an example of how a U.S.-developed product would help boost the local economy in participating nations.
Livingston took several jabs at the “fragile” competitors’ offerings during a news conference at the DSEI defense show in London, saying the Black Hawk proposal was the only option developed purely for the military.
“Some are designed to survive a bump on an oil rig; ours was designed to survive getting shot at,” he said.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry...r-pitch-to-uk/
Lockheed touts local links in Black Hawk-based helicopter pitch to UK
By Sebastian Sprenger and Andrew ChuterSep 12, 11:27 AMLONDON — Lockheed Martin’s U.K. subsidiary unveiled a local industry team, capped by aircraft assembly lead StandardAero, to support its Black Hawk-based bid for the British military’sNew Medium Helicopterprogram.The roster of local companies is meant to put a British face on a U.S. military product, with the head of Lockheed Martin UK, Paul Livingston, saying the aim is to have 40% of the prospective program realized in Britain.
The offer responds to a requirement for a new helicopter type, envisaged by the U.K. government to cost more than £800 million (U.S. $1 billion), that will replace four variants that have been in service for decades.
Lockheed is the last of three contenders to announce its industrial lineup for the much-delayed New Medium Helicopter program. Alongside rival bidders Airbus and Leonardo, the U.S.-based company is still awaiting the release of an invitation to negotiate for up to 44 helicopters.
In the meantime, the three contenders have wasted no time dissing their rivals’ industrial offers while talking up the U.K. credentials of their own, with local jobs and an enduring domestic helicopter-making capability becoming key discriminators in their efforts to woo the Defence Ministry.
Italian company Leonardo, which has made helicopters in the U.K. for decades, recently launched a campaign supporting its AW149 bid by labelling its Yeovil factory where the rotorcraft would be built as the “Home of British Helicopter.” And French firm Airbus is proposing to assemble its H175M at its commercial jet wing factory in North Wales.
With a general election expected next year, who wins the industrial argument might go a long way toward deciding who secures the order.
According to Livingston, a win for Lockheed would translate into 600 new, high-skilled jobs in Britain, plus assured work for decades after the delivery of all helicopters. He pointed to the case of the Lockheed-made F-35 jet, parts of which are made in the U.K., as an example of how a U.S.-developed product would help boost the local economy in participating nations.
Livingston took several jabs at the “fragile” competitors’ offerings during a news conference at the DSEI defense show in London, saying the Black Hawk proposal was the only option developed purely for the military.
“Some are designed to survive a bump on an oil rig; ours was designed to survive getting shot at,” he said.