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RAF announces Puma Replacement plan

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RAF announces Puma Replacement plan

Old 6th Mar 2023, 21:09
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Still awaiting the announcement of the Puma HC3 update and the decision being put off to 2040
by which time the 725 will have retired….
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 21:12
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Originally Posted by FloaterNorthWest
A simulator at a joint venture between Airbus, Thales and DCI that is available for dry lease isn’t equivalent to what Boeing provide for Apache and Chinook training or what they provide for the Australian Military Training. That's fully understood, but please don't forget why/how BDUK was 'awarded' the latest Apache training contract. The company doing the previous training had been well received.

What is so woeful about the EASA approved Level D FFS? - lag, inertia, visuals, reliability - approached head of Airbus ops/trg at the time - she told me that as it had already paid for itself, to spend money on any upgrades would be a difficult proposition to put to shareholders. I note that Thales didn't make the same mistake again and sub-contract INDRA to provide the H160 sim...

Who was going to provide AceHawk’s training solution?
You'd have to ask the guys at Team ML70 but it's not rocket science - current and experienced users 'on type', standard 'train the trainer' plus harnessing the many crews with exchange tour experience - not an option for either the Italian or French-owned NMH option. Imagine the expedience, simplicity and efficiencies present when able to embed air and ground crews with friendly Black Hawk operators on contract signature. Several 3rd-party training providers spring to mind, in addition to BDUK, with both Ascent and CAE having made serious approaches. I understand the Team ML70 set-up preferred to keep it simple, remembering of course that it has all been done before ;-)
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 17:36
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Rishi Sunak has just mentioned increased cooperation from the French on illegal crossings - H175 it is.
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 17:57
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat
Rishi Sunak has just mentioned increased cooperation from the French on illegal crossings - H175 it is.
I shall see that and raise you

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/l...ence-relations

Polish built S70i Blackhawk it is then!
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 21:38
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Last time the government needed Micron’s assistance, we sole sourced H135’s we then remembered we didn’t need.
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 07:52
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat
Last time the government needed Micron’s assistance, we sole sourced H135’s we then remembered we didn’t need.
But those are from Germany! 😉
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 08:33
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Originally Posted by casper64
But those are from Germany! 😉
Doesn’t make them German these days. Let’s just wait for the H175 award
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 08:36
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https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...152345.article
Leonardo Helicopters confirms UK NMH schedule slip
UK defence officials appear to have delayed the next phase of the ongoing New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest,
otentially pushing back the service-entry target for the Puma replacement platform.

Having down-selected bidders in September last year,
the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) was supposed to issue the invitation to negotiate (ITN) to the three remaining contenders by the end of the first quarter 2023,
according to the most recent schedule.

However, the ITN – essentially the detailed specification, quantity and budget for the procurement – is now unlikely to arrive before mid-year 2023,
according to Leonardo Helicopters.


tefano Villanti, senior vice-president of sales and marketing at Leonardo Helicopters,
says the ITN is now expected to be released in May or June 2023,
although the MoD “has not specified an exact date”;
contract award is now anticipated in 2024, he adds.

Under the MoD’s initial schedule,
eliveries were meant to begin in 2025
allowing the progressive retirement of the Royal Air Force’s fleet of Puma HC2 transports.

But Villanti says the date for the first delivery was not specified at the industry day.
“The process has dragged on for longer [than expected] so 2025 is going be a challenge,” he adds.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...152345.article
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 08:54
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat
Doesn’t make them German these days. Let’s just wait for the H175 award
Shows what little you know about Airbus. One name but two completely different philosophies.

You’ll be saying the aircraft built by Airbus Helicopters Inc are French next.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 16:46
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Originally Posted by FloaterNorthWest
Shows what little you know about Airbus. One name but two completely different philosophies.

You’ll be saying the aircraft built by Airbus Helicopters Inc are French next.
I remember about the time the Puma MRGB's were cracking up and spares were generally not forthcoming from France, a visit revealed empty racks for spares due to be sent out to French military and rack after rack stuffed to the gills with spares supposedly to be sent out to the UK military and a very anti Anglophile French storeman running the goods out department.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 22:20
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
I remember about the time the Puma MRGB's were cracking up and spares were generally not forthcoming from France, a visit revealed empty racks for spares due to be sent out to French military and rack after rack stuffed to the gills with spares supposedly to be sent out to the UK military and a very anti Anglophile French storeman running the goods out department.
you can’t say that - it doesn’t suit the narrative!.
……and to say otherwise is crazy when there are so many occasions UK Airbus drivers have been waiting at the shorty end of the stick for spares. Sticking a Union Jack on it does not make it British, just like adding ‘UK’ at the end of company name doesn’t make it a British company.
Then AHUK are only following the form book as they think sticking an ‘M’ after 175 makes it a military helicopter !
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 06:25
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Originally Posted by EESDL
Sticking a Union Jack on it does not make it British, just like adding ‘UK’ at the end of company name doesn’t make it a British company.
so what would make it a British company in your eyes?

Being registered in UK?
Having its Headquarters in UK?
Employing hundreds of UK employees?
Paying UK corporation tax?

….or is there something I’m missing?

This is a genuine question - Does having a non-uk parent company disqualify an organization from being British?

What is the preferred answer?
To only buy helicopters from a ‘truly British company’ that was started and owned by ‘real’ Brits with no foreign involvement…. Like Leonardo?


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Old 10th Mar 2023, 18:30
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How many "British" helicopter manufacturers are there today that build uniquely British designed, built, and sold helicopters?

I rule out Aircraft that are built "under license" from non-British companies.
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 19:41
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Originally Posted by SASless
How many "British" helicopter manufacturers are there today that build uniquely British designed, built, and sold helicopters?

I rule out Aircraft that are built "under license" from non-British companies.
In fact how many purely British designed and manufactured helicopter types have been built since the end of WW2 that have had some commercial success.
Skeeter, Sycamore, Belvedere, Lynx

Last edited by ericferret; 10th Mar 2023 at 19:53.
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 20:08
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eric,some Skeeters and Sycamores were sold ,along with Scouts and Wasps to other countries as well..
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 22:17
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Originally Posted by Autorev
so what would make it a British company in your eyes?

Being registered in UK?
Having its Headquarters in UK?
Employing hundreds of UK employees?
Paying UK corporation tax?

….or is there something I’m missing?

This is a genuine question - Does having a non-uk parent company disqualify an organization from being British?

What is the preferred answer?
To only buy helicopters from a ‘truly British company’ that was started and owned by ‘real’ Brits with no foreign involvement…. Like Leonardo?
The sooner everyone realised that there hasn’t been a British company that makes such helicopters for quite a while.
Leonardo is majority owned by Italian government and has a history of doing things the ‘Italian’ way - rather than the ‘British’ way - whatever that is.
I guess the ‘Italian’ way is to say that the helicopters for British SAR were being built in Britain - repeatedly - when they were built in Italy. We know this because Bristow had to send manpower to Italy to oversee the work.
It’s great that Yeovil employs UK workforce but the taxpayer has paid a heavy price to subsidise it. I suggest that Yeovil still
only exists as long as the Group makes money from UK - remember the threats at the start of NMH campaign about putting its future in jeopardy if they didn’t win the contract - cheeky, arrogant fuc7ers!
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 08:45
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Originally Posted by sycamore
eric,some Skeeters and Sycamores were sold ,along with Scouts and Wasps to other countries as well..
Scout and Wasp don't really count as the engine was developed under licence from Turbomeca

However you look at it the most successful production runs have been from licence built aircraft.
I have to say I am In the Blackhawk corner.
Having spent the last 12 years working on Leonardo aircraft 169/139 I just think the technology is not suitable for a military aircraft that will be operating mainly in the field.

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Old 11th Mar 2023, 09:54
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I'm with you ericferret having worked on Black Hawk, 139 and 175 , as a combat assault machine 139 (149 similar construction) and 175 are not even close no ballistic tolerance (like to see either take hits from .50 let alone 23mm like BH, no multi backup flight control & hyd systems , no tail wheel U/C to assist in safe brownout/whiteout landings etc , but we all know it won't be what the RAF want (and have wanted the last 20 years) it will be a politically selected UK assembled machine , I just feel sorry for the RAF guys if they ever have to go into combat in a 149 or 175.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 13:24
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There needs to be some accountability and the MoD should insist on it (but they won’f) When a crew is lost due to small arms fire etc in these plastic, non-combat ready aircraft, the company executives should be liable and should be required to provide testimony and empiric proof to support their statements as to the ballistic protection of their aircraft.
If (when) it transpires that their claims of battlefield survival abilities were exaggerated or untrue, they they should be charged with corporate manslaughter. This should also apply to those in the UK who make the decision. If they truly believe the 175 or 149 are combat capable and survivable, then let them put their money where their mouth is.
Make this a requirement of the contract award and get the bidders to agree to it. If LH and Airbus are really telling the truth, then why would they hesitate?
Oh, this would apply to Sikorsky as well, but we all know it is the only properly designed and constructed combat helicopter in the NMH contest.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 15:26
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A brief history of how the US Army came to buy the Sikorsky Black Hawk.

A comparison to that and the way the British MoD is going about its replacement of the Puma (a tactical combat helicopter) would suggest once again the UK MoD is screwing the pooch!

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...raft/uttas.htm
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