Hey FAA,...you missed one! :-)
Thread Starter
Hey FAA,...you missed one! :-)
They made such an effort to placate to the rest of you and eliminate the term "Settling with Power" from their vocabulary (**** even Robinson got rid of it), but I guess they weren't quite that thorough, as I found this in the description on Steep Approaches,...while looking for that ETL vibration from the other thread,...ha ha!
Anyway, just found this amusing. 
A steep approach permits entry into most confined areas and is sometimes used to avoid areas of turbulence around a pinnacle. An approach angle of approximately 13° to 15° is considered a steep approach. [Figure 10-4] Caution must be exercised to avoid the parameters for settling with power (20–100 percent of available power applied, airspeed of less than 10 knots, and a rate of descent greater than 300 fpm). For additional information on settling with power, refer to Chapter 11, Helicopter Emergencies and Hazards
Yes, but it's not the term itself they needed to remove as it is an accurate description of trying to hover with insufficient power available followed by decaying Nr and massive overpitching. It was just confusing it with VRS that was the issue
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Yes, but it's not the term itself they needed to remove as it is an accurate description of trying to hover with insufficient power available followed by decaying Nr and massive overpitching. It was just confusing it with VRS that was the issue
So how would you describe VRS compared to what I just said.?
I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
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I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
So how would you describe VRS compared to what I just said.?
I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
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I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
#
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by [email protected]
So how would you describe VRS compared to what I just said.?
I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
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I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
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Now sure, overpitching can lead to VRS, but since the root cause of that situation was insufficient power, it makes no sense to call it, settling "with power".
Anyway, this is all moot, as the FAA no longer uses that term, so for us, "settling with power" does not exist,....well at least when they discover that they missed this one and erase it too that is.
Funny---we use that term all the time n the utility world...., the mountain flying world.... maybe you should broaden your scope a little, you are are confirming many people's opinions of "poorly trained" Robbie Pilots. (And I try to differentiate between well trained and poorly trained).
Thread Starter
Funny---we use that term all the time n the utility world...., the mountain flying world.... maybe you should broaden your scope a little, you are are confirming many people's opinions of "poorly trained" Robbie Pilots. (And I try to differentiate between well trained and poorly trained).
Yes, we old school pilots still use the term (just like I still buy DVDs,...to which a kid scolded me the other day). The point here (which I thought was obvious) is that the FAA removed it from the text (i.e. THEY no longer use that term) so eventually you will have a whole generation of young pilots who don't use that term at all!
Sling loading a drum of cable into a steep sided canyon which necessitated a rather steepish and slow approach, coming to the hover it didn't, max power, still going down vertically, zero airspeed, but came to the hover with greatly reduced power setting when the load hit the ground. One of those I learnt about flying from that moments. Question, what condition had I placed myself in?
Thread Starter
You could save a fortune doing away with the receive channel on your radio.
Frank must be pleased with such a wonderful poster boy for his products.
Avoid imitations
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Whatever next...will the FAA be going metric?
There's no need to flounce off Robbie - I was trying to make a serious point which seems forgotten in the argument - settling with power is to do with performance (or lack of it) but VRS is purely an aerodynamic condition.
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP and maximum MAP before they go flying? How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
Now try coming to an OGE hover when your engine isn't performing properly or your blades are dirty (or even both) - you were expecting to have that performance but it's not there and you start to descend, immediate reaction is to raise the lever - cue Nr decay as the engine maxes out and an unwanted descent which, if you are lucky, will stop as ground effect saves you. You have just setlled with power but were not in IVRS or VRS.
That is why it is important to understand the difference, to make pilots aware that you must know your expected performance BEFORE you go flying rather than finding out the hard way.
The problem is, you can exceed your MAP and there are no flashing lights or klaxons in the cockpit so it is easily ignored but you are slowly trashing your engine.
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP and maximum MAP before they go flying? How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
Now try coming to an OGE hover when your engine isn't performing properly or your blades are dirty (or even both) - you were expecting to have that performance but it's not there and you start to descend, immediate reaction is to raise the lever - cue Nr decay as the engine maxes out and an unwanted descent which, if you are lucky, will stop as ground effect saves you. You have just setlled with power but were not in IVRS or VRS.
That is why it is important to understand the difference, to make pilots aware that you must know your expected performance BEFORE you go flying rather than finding out the hard way.
The problem is, you can exceed your MAP and there are no flashing lights or klaxons in the cockpit so it is easily ignored but you are slowly trashing your engine.
Ok, I just watched an american instructor carrying out an initial r22 lesson with a very able jet pilot (go watch it on YouTube if you want to know, IMHO, how not to do an r22 first lesson) and the subsequent couple lessons, its no surprise that some Americans don’t believe in Settling with Power, if thats the Standard of instructional technique. (Disclaimer, only my opinion)
If you actually go away and look at the issues/conditions for VRS and SWP, surely one is not necessarily required for the other. Remember from your instructor telling you that VRS will increase, the more pitch you pull?
So, Mr old school pilot Robbiee, please can you give us the benefit of your vast wisdom and knowledge and for one last time, shut down this whole argument and answer the following few questions clearly for us all because obviously there are many on PPRuNe who don’t know a thing about helicopters.
1. Would the Vouichard Technique work with Settling with Power? (Or does SWP not exist)
2. What is VRS exactly and under what conditions are you most likely to experience it?
3. What exactly is over pitching ?
4. What exactly is Settling with Power in your expert opinion?
I really look forward to your clear explanations, hopefully not just pulled from a text book. Keep it simple please as we are only Helicopter pilots.
This argument about VRS and SWP has been done to death on here but it still surprises me to see people discounting them as fake, or thinking they are the same thing.
As for #5673, was the mug given as an award??
Have a nice day.
If you actually go away and look at the issues/conditions for VRS and SWP, surely one is not necessarily required for the other. Remember from your instructor telling you that VRS will increase, the more pitch you pull?
So, Mr old school pilot Robbiee, please can you give us the benefit of your vast wisdom and knowledge and for one last time, shut down this whole argument and answer the following few questions clearly for us all because obviously there are many on PPRuNe who don’t know a thing about helicopters.
1. Would the Vouichard Technique work with Settling with Power? (Or does SWP not exist)
2. What is VRS exactly and under what conditions are you most likely to experience it?
3. What exactly is over pitching ?
4. What exactly is Settling with Power in your expert opinion?
I really look forward to your clear explanations, hopefully not just pulled from a text book. Keep it simple please as we are only Helicopter pilots.
This argument about VRS and SWP has been done to death on here but it still surprises me to see people discounting them as fake, or thinking they are the same thing.
As for #5673, was the mug given as an award??
Have a nice day.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP and maximum MAP before they go flying? How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
Without fail, it is attributed to an unexpected loss of power or VRS and never to power required exceeding power available.
The differences between these conditions should be painfully apparent to people operating piston-powered aircraft, with low power margins.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP
and maximum MAP before they go flying?
How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
Now try coming to an OGE hover when your engine isn't performing properly or your blades are dirty (or even both).
You know I bought myself a brand new, 8 foot tall ladder this Spring and promised myself I would work extra hard at keeping those blades clean this year. Haven't cleaned them once, yet 
But you are right about that.
The problem is, you can exceed your MAP and there are no flashing lights or klaxons in the cockpit so it is easily ignored but you are slowly trashing your engine.
Sadly, there is no information in the POH that will allow that to be done.That's a required, pre-takeoff checklist item. to calculate 5 minute max. and max. continuous vs. OAT. A lot of folks tend to forget about it after takeoff, though, and never look at the OAT again. Again, you can't do that, but you can at least check to see how many inches of MP you've got under 5 minute max. and MCP, which is always a good thing to know.
Again, you can't do that, but you can at least check to see how many inches of MP you've got under 5 minute max. and MCP, which is always a good thing to know.Pulling into a hover gives a pretty clear idea of margin to max.
Having a giant display that says 99% isn't going to change much when too many haven't bothered to plan and ignored the subsequent low-rpm alarm.
If you know what your max MP is, which is a preflight item, and you do proper planning to calculate what max could be, based on the warmest forecast temp and highest point of departure then it really isn't rocket science.
Pulling into a hover gives a pretty clear idea of margin to max.
Having a giant display that says 99% isn't going to change much when too many haven't bothered to plan and ignored the subsequent low-rpm alarm.
Pulling into a hover gives a pretty clear idea of margin to max.
Having a giant display that says 99% isn't going to change much when too many haven't bothered to plan and ignored the subsequent low-rpm alarm.
aa777888 - and you will of course have calculated your AUM for take off and checked that you have both IGE and OGE performance available at your operating density altitude.
Your multiple emoticons don't make it clear if you believe dirty blades can make a big difference to hover power or not. If you don't then you really do need to think again.
On big boy helicopters you get to do power assurance checks on a daily or weekly basis to check how the engine is performing and if they are good and your hover performance is suffering, chances are your blades need cleaning.
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