So, what do you think?
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From: Aus
What a difference between UK and USA, over here we always go to the grass not the hard
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Nope, we have carbide skid shoes. The risk of rollover on grass is too high. We are also doing stuck pedals to the ground, where you may have some minor spin on touchdown---not good on grass. Our Hyd Off maneuvers we bring to a hover, and enter from 100' hover to simulate long lining worse case scenario.
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Might it be to do with the weight of the aircraft ? I have done over 30 years thousands of EOL's to the grass, biggest ac though has been a 350/355. Also stuck pedals exercises, limited power, have all been sliding across the green grass.
I have always viewed it, that if I was personally jumping off a wall I would always be going for the grass not concrete as it is more forgiving !
I have always viewed it, that if I was personally jumping off a wall I would always be going for the grass not concrete as it is more forgiving !
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
Over the 45 years I spent in aviation, every touchdown I ever did (and there was a lot), except for one, was to grass. The one to a concrete taxiway generated a lot of sparks from the skid shoes, and comments from the groundies to avoid that in future.
However, comma, I did scare the snot out of myself once when doing autos to grass in a B206 that had pop-out floats. It dug in and rose up on the nose and raised the heart rate somewhat. Engineering inspection needed after that one, but all OK.
However, comma, I did scare the snot out of myself once when doing autos to grass in a B206 that had pop-out floats. It dug in and rose up on the nose and raised the heart rate somewhat. Engineering inspection needed after that one, but all OK.
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From: Out there
Nope, we have carbide skid shoes. The risk of rollover on grass is too high. We are also doing stuck pedals to the ground, where you may have some minor spin on touchdown---not good on grass. Our Hyd Off maneuvers we bring to a hover, and enter from 100' hover to simulate long lining worse case scenario.
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Yes indeedy.....Did many in this one
Interesting how Bell Helicopter will only do hard surface:
"AUTOROTATION TRAINING: All touchdown auto-rotations shall be completed to a hard, smooth surface to allow every measure of safety while the Customer has the opportunity to learn from each such maneuver. "
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
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From: After all, whats more important than proving to someone on the internet that theyre wrong? - Manson
Fixed bags are great fun. As Gordy said the “yaw roll” couple can be interesting! I think at night you might be upside down with an engine failure in the cruise before you caught it with the pedals as you will not recover the roll with cyclic in a 206!
Autos to the water are the easiest for sure. Done them in 47, 206 and 205.
Gordy, get back to us with your technique at 9500 lbs! You might find the timing is a little different!
The 205 A1 being a Transport Category aircraft has landing distances “power off” over a 50’ obstacle published in the RFM.
Interesting reading!
Autos to the water are the easiest for sure. Done them in 47, 206 and 205.
Gordy, get back to us with your technique at 9500 lbs! You might find the timing is a little different!
The 205 A1 being a Transport Category aircraft has landing distances “power off” over a 50’ obstacle published in the RFM.
Interesting reading!
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
I do have a 205A++ and yep, full of people in the back, the zero speed "hang time" would remain the same but the acceleration phase would need to be tad higher. Having said that, ROD may be less due to higher pitch angle to maintain RRPM, but only on my second coffee---would need to think about this a little more......
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From: Florida
We did autos from 500' hover in the 206 at the Bell Academy, not 100'. It was tricky then. It's really tempting fate to do it from 100'.
Skid gear in grass will work as long as it stays straight. A little too much sideways and the machine is going over in grass, but asphalt lets the instructor feel more comfortable.
Skid gear in grass will work as long as it stays straight. A little too much sideways and the machine is going over in grass, but asphalt lets the instructor feel more comfortable.
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From: Central UK
Fascinting to hear all these authoratative N American statements about the hazards of autos to grass- leaving nothing to chance, too much risk of a trip-up, too much hazard etc etc...
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension.
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help.
We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?
That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension.
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help.
We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?
That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen..
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen..
You can see where the skids were not allowed to spread...
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2018
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From: California
Fascinting to hear all these authoratative N American statements about the hazards of autos to grass- leaving nothing to chance, too much risk of a trip-up, too much hazard etc etc...
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension.
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help.
We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?
That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension.
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help.
We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?
That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.
You wanna see how far you can stick your dick into the H/V Diagram?,...fine!,...just don't ask to borrow my 22 with which to do it!
As for doing autos to grass. I always flew around the city so,...
What's grass,...?
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2018
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From: California